Podcast E39: A Transforming Light in the Darkness

This podcast focuses on hope and the challenging processes people are going through these years. The recent period has been marked by global and personal turbulence, which has forced us to look our dark sides in the eye. However, the guest in the podcast, Mette, believes that there is hope ahead, and that the difficult times are part of a transformation process that will ultimately lead to a better future.

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  Humanity is splitting into two groups: those who cling to the old and those who embrace change. It is the latter group that possesses hope, as they are open to evolving and thus able to find solutions to the crises the world faces.

  Relationships are another central theme in the podcast. These current times create increased tension and dynamics in relationships, and many couples find that they are pressed to confront their own flaws and immaturities. However, Mette emphasizes that it is possible to use these challenges to strengthen the relationship and create a deeper love. This requires courage and honesty, as well as in-depth work with oneself and one's partner.

  The podcast also highlights the importance of taking responsibility for one's own life. Listeners are encouraged to focus on the conflicts and disturbances they can control in their own lives, and to avoid wasting energy on global issues that are beyond their reach. It is about creating peace within oneself before one can contribute to peace in the world.

  One of Mette's most important points is the difference between empathy and compassion. Empathy can lead to burnout, as one is absorbed by the pain of others, while compassion allows one to see and understand the suffering of others without being overwhelmed.

  The hope for the future lies in helping our children develop resilience and antifragility. They must learn to deal with adversity and pain, to make conscious choices, and to take responsibility for their own lives. By supporting them in this process, we can give them the best conditions to navigate in a complex and changing world.

• Transcript

  Translated transcript of the original Danish podcast

  Hosts: Mette Miriam Sloth & Sune Sloth

  Welcome to the Magdalene Effect podcast episode 39, where we sit here.

  Mhm.

  And we're going to talk about hope and the processes that are going on. Are they forever, or what comes on the other side?

  Is there something that gets finalised? Is there something new coming? It can look a bit hopeless when you look out into the world. Now that Trump has won. And what the f*** is the point of it all?

  Phew.

  Free all over the place. And there are many things you could go into about environmental disasters and

  and yes

  nuclear weapons and the Paris Agreement. Trump is leaving NATO. What's going on there? And today we're going to go into this with hope.

  Mhm.

  And I really want to talk to you about that.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  Because now you're being grilled.

  Because we're well aware that there are others who have experienced it themselves, where we wonder, will it continue to be a process? What comes on the other side? Where do we go from here?

  Well, yes.

  And that's actually one thing, what's happening in the world? What's happening to ourselves?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  So if you uh close your eyes with that and go into fashion.

  Mhm.

  Um.

  So is there any hope of what you're asking about?

  Yes, let me ask a first question. Is it going to continue to be so hard, or is there hope for a brighter future? I would definitely say there is hope for a brighter future. With that in mind, it's not like one day we'll just stop and it will never be difficult again. Not in that way. But what I have clearly seen and sensed is that the last many years have been really, really tough. The last seven of the last four of the last seven have been so it's almost if you've survived them not so the meme of the guy who's kind of a little bit a little bit fat man and so that's often used and something like that with you know the day after I've been on holiday with my kids or something like that he falls off a cliff and then he rolls and rolls rolls rolls rolls I think there are many of us who feel such extremely exhausted cases of bizarre pain that do not necessarily make it to the doctor in any way. And you've experienced a lot of turbulence in your life externally with jobs or moves or relationships that have gone to shit or people you love who have been extremely ill or it's been some tough, violent years and so you say it's not always there's always been war and blah blah blah and stuff like that, but it's as if some portals have opened up, some layers in us humans, as if we feel it more. Not everyone, but many feel it more.

  M. Mm.

  Um. And what I've kind of seen is that it's as if there have been two of them, especially in the last seven years, with this year, as the last year has been running. Both such a spiral that has gone vertically, and then almost such a, I don't know if the metro and those who dig out the metro tunnel and use such a, but almost such a tunnel cabinet that goes horizontally, so where we have almost been pinged in the dark.

  Yes. Yes. How does the money work?

  The money is a bit like a that that that we are constantly reminded of it as if there is something that constantly reminds you or forces you to relate to the darkness in yourself and in others.

  Yes, you are.

  To a greater degree. It's filled with that which you don't have but you just couldn't park it.

  Mm.

  And that's both in the macrocosm, where we can see on a global scale. But certainly also in the microcosm, whether it's that you spot patterns of behaviour in your family or with your partner or in yourself that you're just like, phew, I don't know if I'm particularly proud of that, or you need to do something about it. Um,

  or you just feel more, you feel stressed, or you feel exhausted, you feel chronically ill, or in many ways you feel like you're running on fumes. And it's not just a feeling. We can also see it in

  statistics. There are far more people who have applied for private health insurance and become sick with stress. There are far more people who have been diagnosed with HD, which is autism spectrum disorder. So there we can see the general, you know, where a lot of people have answered questions about well-being, such a gallop survey and above-the-line

  responded back that they feel more anxious. They feel more, it's like what's happening right now is making people feel more anxious even during the potato famine or all these different times when there's been potato famine, there's been plenty of bad things in the world, right? So it's not news that something difficult is happening, but it's as if we're affected.

  So those who are the ones who feel, they feel more.

  Yes, they do. They

  also believe that those who don't feel

  harder to push away, like not doing anything about it or something.

  Yeah, yeah. It's like you can't you can't really hold on or you you you want to it's like you you you're confronted with it in a way where you can't just close your eyes to it.

  Mm.

  Or drive on. So to a greater extent.

  Yes, that's what I've heard from a lot of people.

  That's what I've heard from a lot of them. It's like I work with people. I've been doing that for many years. Who are struggling. And who are in situations in their lives that are more difficult, and that's why they seek help from counselling on that.

  Mm.

  But I have to say, it's as if the majority come with one wild story after another. So something like within the last few years, almost everyone they know has died, or they've all fallen ill, or they themselves have fallen ill, or their children are ill, or all sorts of wild things have happened.

  Mm.

  So you know, it's kind of been queuing up like that,

  so it seems like the curtain has been pulled back.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  Underneath us.

  Yeah, underneath us.

  And some of the things that we thought were stable,

  we're leaning into like what the hell can we really count on, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  So many people feel like they've been shaken to their core.

  Yeah, yeah.

  But in relation to that with becoming penget, where it's both as if they drove the vertical and the horizontal

  and I was driving together. So it's the vertical that's how you relate to it. It's as if we're constantly telling you what's difficult or reacting to it and then it keeps happening when it's difficult. That is, if you get angry at someone and freak out and beat them up, then you have a consequence you have to deal with, or yes

  so you have to deal with reacting here. But if I react, what happens then?

  Yes, yes, yes, yes,

  and sometimes I have to react, but it also gives all the reactions in this, it's hard to set boundaries or or not setting boundaries gives some outcomes that you could also relate to. So because so many people seem to have been affected by this, there have also been many clashes. It's as if things have already become very explosive. Erm,

  it's fair to say that there are some people who aren't actually on board with the transformation, who are still, where it's still coming to a head.

  Yes, there are some who are dying out with the old, that is, there are some who are not mutating or changing. Yes, there are. That lock themselves in.

  What percentage do you think it is?

  About 70 per cent.

  And that means it's not like they're going to starve to death tomorrow or be taken by mutation or something. It's not like that, they can

  generations.

  It's generations. They might die out over the next two or three generations. Generations that say I can do 30 years, right? Then the next ones Yes. So the next 60 to 90 years

  we will most likely live in a very different world. Yeah, yeah.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  Like we'll be kind of split into two groups of people.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  Um, and it's not like an A and a B team. It's more like these years have been so hard, where you've been forced to relate to something. Either you have that friction, that resistance, that tension, that discomfort. Either you've been trying to figure out, what should I do with this? What is mine, what is not mine? Or you've been searching and riding the waves.

  Someone has been swept underneath, and you know, come back up and realise, okay, my house has been smashed, or what I thought I was standing on has been smashed. My understanding of life has been smashed, but I put something new together and keep going.

  Or you've kind of chosen to clench yourself tightly

  if the world is like this. Is it the others' fault, or are they not going to get anything. So you either clench yourself tightly around the old and make your world much smaller.

  Mm.

  Or it's as if you've been forced to expand your understanding of what it means to be human and who you are. And then and there, you would have faced something that could

  similar to an existential crisis. Many times to have survived.

  Yes, you would have survived.

  And it seems to be two different kinds of people you want. And it's like, and it's not that either you're a little bit, it's like you seem to be kind of coded for one or the other. A bit like and now some people may think when you compare other Homo sapiens, that there are others who talk about something wrong with ergo those who close themselves to the old there is something wrong. I don't think we have to make it right or wrong. I just think that's the way it is. Just like at some point we emerge from something and something dies out. Then there are also some human behaviours that are dying out. And you can say, okay, Trump has just won. There's no doubt in my mind that he's a malignant narcissist. There's no doubt about that at all.

  So he got over 50% of the vote. Somebody needs him to save their arse or or cope with the degradation and the way he acts in the world. And it's not like I'm saying like uh democrats and stuff like that. I mean, the political landscape is in need of a proper upgrade, but it's still a symbolic thing, because I see energetically that the forms of behaviour that use to die out. But right now, we have to say that they've been pushed up, right?

  Yeah, they are.

  Big time.

  Yes. Big time. Then the world is going somewhere better or worse.

  Yes, it is.

  Or is it that it has to get worse before it gets better? Are we there?

  I think instead of that, I think what's new is that we're moving in instead of either or it's both years.

  Mm.

  In the sense that the world will still be unstable for a long time.

  Mm. There's still a lot we need to get our heads out of our arses and deal with

  the plastic waters ready with the whole package, right?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  Where I actually think that what we're going to see in the next 10 to 20 years, I think we're going to see, there's a percentage of people who have come through this period and come through this period equipped by you know, and been crashed their understanding of life, their understanding of themselves others. But they've healed themselves, they've gone somewhere else. They've taken care of their emotions. They've kind of had to move. They've opened up to deeper understandings of themselves and others.

  Mm.

  These people, I think a percentage of them will, within the next 10 to 20 years, come up with absolutely fabulous solutions to some of these problems we're facing. We're in deep shit, right? There's no doubt that we are as a species, and that's an 11, right?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah,

  But I don't think it's too late. I know, if you read about research on climate change and stuff like that, it looks really bad, right?

  Mhm.

  I think there's a critical mass, critical Mars of critical food critical food that's going to

  very very quickly to be able to find some solutions

  mm

  uh by almost living out their soul impulse because their soul impulse has basically knocked and they've listened to the call and they don't just start living it regardless of whether they call it soul even though many don't it doesn't make any sense to them it's just it's just concepts not

  mm

  you will be able to feel on the people you could feel they have it's like they have got hold of something they see something they they come up with and can see something new is possible and they instead of just seeing it they do it. They live it, they act it. M

  So it's going to be hugely exciting. And that's where I think the hope is anymore. And then there's a large group who keep doing what they're doing. They complain before, they shoot at each other, and all that guilt and shame and manipulation and exploitation, all that stuff, it's not going to be there at all.

  It exists at the same time.

  It exists at the same time. So it also means that there's something about being shaken out of your naivety that if only we were all nice to each other, the darkness would go away, right?

  Mm.

  All that, it's here.

  And you're inside, you contain it too. And you're under enough pressure. Trust me, you can kill. Are you under enough pressure? That you can slaughter your aunts without Oh yeah, you got the shadows in you.

  Mm.

  So it's more do you have the courage to look at it and integrate it and know when to use these and when not to use them?

  Yes, you do.

  Then you can own your own darkness. So it's really been a huge amount of shaken naivety during this period, if you've had the courage, that is.

  Yes, there has been. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  Can you give some examples of where that could be, for example, relationships?

  Well, it can

  What do you see What do you see there when you

  Yes, I actually see more exciting things in the relationship. Mm.

  So also how difficult it is.

  Yes, it is.

  Well, it really is, and every time I have a couple session, I say to both him and her that the relationship is the most difficult relationship there is. So it takes all the courage you can muster. And sometimes the most loving thing you can do for each other is to set each other free.

  Mm.

  Rather than keep running around in the same thing. If you can't figure out how to end your cycles, if you can't figure out how to look at them

  Mm.

  take care of them, well then you're killing each other in that by repeating the same toxic pattern.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bst. Or did you look like this

  Yes. Figuratively speaking. Yes. In transferred.

  Transferred on

  It might sound harsh, but that's what I see now and now I'm not talking about extreme, where there is violence and stuff like that. That's a whole other group in itself. I'm just talking about ordinary relationships.

  Do you find that the dynamics with your partner have become more violent?

  Yes, they have.

  They push themselves to get up and heal.

  Yes, they do.

  But when they're pushing, you're going to find it's going to be so violent for you and for your partner.

  Mhm.

  So yes, I see both what it is again about whether the man and the woman can look their own immaturities in the eye and look at the trauma that lies there and know what what what what where do I close where can I open where do I open to this or should I not and does he or she open up with

  Yes

  so that's the, erm, that's the

  it's been tricky very very tricky where it's in the right relationship when you work with it that one opens up more and more and the other doesn't really get on board

  It's a mixed mixed must act mixed I would say because there is the variant that there is also the variant that there are two people who just they both want both actually want and really want relationship But they are so bogged down by the arguments or the coldness or the closedness that they both experience. They don't know how to go beyond that, but they don't know how to do it. Um, and then there are those couples where they're like, I don't know if it's me that's causing all this difficulty or if it's my partner. I don't know what's mine and I don't know what's his or hers.

  Mhm.

  And that and then there are some people who come to say, we have to break up. This is too hard and we want help to do it in a way where they're not stuck in, you know, all sorts of fights about kids and things on the other side where it's like, okay, how can we get through this? So call it respectful as possible.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  Um, so there are actually many variants of that. There are

  there are also some variants where they managed to start walking the road together regardless of whether it's a small percentage. I would say the divorce rate is quite high,

  but I would also say that many of them, because I work with couples in a different way than a classic couples therapist, um, so I get the couples who come are typically someone who has been through previous, um, couples therapy, where they have learnt to communicate needs. They've kind of increased their skills in communicating needs, talking about feelings and stuff like that,

  they find that they're still in these dynamics.

  Yes, they are.

  And even when they can do that, there's still something. They feel that there's still something there.

  Mm.

  And then they'll think, what do we do from here? And then they come to me, and then they do sessions together, and then they share and say, I would also recommend that you go individually, so we work on your individual blocks and closures

  and whatever you have.

  And then back out. In your daily life, see what it does to you and then look back at it that way, right?

  Do you have an experience that there can be progression if only one person is working on it? So what does progression look like if only one person

  I want to see if yes. And it is, because it's not, it's not there, there's typically someone in a relationship who has either heard something we've done or read some of my books or something, who is inspired by it.

  That's right.

  So it doesn't necessarily mean that their partner thinks that I'm the best person to work with or the way I talk about things or whatever. So it can be that one of them sometimes wants both of them to have heard what we write or something,

  but sometimes it's just one and the other, it's not a match, it's not for them. And that means that I really only work with one of them.

  Mm.

  And you could say that there can be two ways. That you start working with your own where you want to find out where your patterns are, where you have this to where you have that, where you become

  We're all going to be abusive in our relationships. Where are you going to be abusive Where are you immature and put your own s*** on your partner? What needs to be brought home? Where are you putting your own responsibility on your partner? And where are you going to allow the other person to offend you? And where are you taking too much responsibility? That's basically what we go in and investigate. And so that will affect the relationship.

  Yes, it will.

  And it can either affect the relationship by inspiring the other person, because there are some things you take home so that the other person can breathe a little easier. But there are also some things you no longer do because you can see, hey, I've let myself be taken advantage of here, or I've played the role of a dancer by taking on some responsibility that wasn't mine.

  Mm.

  And that is, when you start taking it home, the other person can get a bit screamish, because it's very nice if the other person would constantly take responsibility for your feelings or constantly take responsibility for the home or constantly take responsibility for making all the money or whatever it might be, right?

  So that is, if you start to say, we're two people doing this, then the other person can do it, then it will hurt.

  Mm.

  So that

  But the other person also learns to set more boundaries when they realise that it's not actually me it's landing on.

  There's an opportunity for that. There is an opportunity for the other person to be invited. Now I'm thinking

  I'm thinking the one who gets help from you, right?

  Yes, yes, definitely. And the boundary seed. Yes, yes. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, that

  it can trigger something in the other person, where they end up coming to you for help. It's been done sometimes, right?

  Yes, it has. It has done that. It will definitely do something to the relationship and or uh or also to start finding someone to travel with, to get help from others. It doesn't have to be me.

  But they may have a match with another therapist or something else

  that they then

  so that can sometimes catalyse them to start

  definitely work. Yes.

  Yeah, yeah. Because if someone starts to look at their own behaviour differently, it will create a ripple effect in the relationship, which will either invite the other person to work in their own way, or the distance will become clearer and become so yawning that it can no longer be hidden or overlooked.

  So it will do something. Yes, it will.

  Yes, it will.

  It's inevitable.

  Mm.

  So it may sound harsh all this. But the reason I see a lot of hope in it is that these dynamics have just been there. We just kind of moved the pieces around.

  Yeah, yeah.

  Erm. And yes, it always helps you to talk about feelings. It always helps to be able to talk about feelings and stuff like that, right? So now I think it's love language, and I think that's pretty hopeless too. I've never experienced, I know many people like this, this whole theory, it's not really true, but a

  Well, it was invented by a priest, so that doesn't make it valid, but there is someone who benefits from that piece.

  Yes, there is. And there is someone who gets joy, that you could say it's a step in a direction where you get a little bit of God. The other person also has needs, and I have some needs. So I can take responsibility for that by formulating it like this and like this.

  And then it's not because it's a tool like a hammer. It's just that if you have to do something other than with nails, then it doesn't work.

  Mm.

  So it's like at some point it's not enough either.

  No, it isn't.

  Because that's how you get angry with the other person. Now, I've told you that my labour of love is gifts. So why don't you give me more gifts? If the other person thinks, well, I don't express my love by giving gifts because it's stupid. Just like that, you're right there, right?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  So there's something like that

  It's a step towards figuring out what you need more than you want. But there's also something of a child in it, right?

  Yes, there is. Because it's still wrapped up in the fact that the other person is there for my needs, because then I don't feel loved or seen or met or something, right?

  Exactly.

  So

  So I see hope, that there is someone and being called to go very, very deep.

  Yeah. And I can see it in them.

  And I can see in them that they're suffering and it hurts, and they even or in something that can seem almost violent. I mean, you can want to get into a fight. Some people never realised they would end up there, which is not typical. So, it can be really intense. And I see that something has been pushed to the surface that we have to go through, which has always been there between the sexes, even in ordinary relationships, where the extreme poles have been violent, right? But...

  But that gap has been there and has been built up over a long time. So the fact that we dare to look at it, I can work with it, there are some couples who are extremely brave and keep trying the whole thing.

  Mm.

  Um. And also wanting the whole thing with the other. And if the other refuses, then that's the next thing they go for, it's like okay, how can I then set this person free in a loving way without losing my way, and how can I then get my own home and move on m

  and create a new relationship with each other, right?

  So as gracefully and as

  as lovingly as possible, right?

  So it's like it's been a period where very deep insights have landed, and it's been very beautiful. I would say, to be able to follow people over the last few years. It's been some wild transformations they've been through. So it's been very uh and it's actually been a great gift to be let so deeply into being allowed to follow some people there,

  because they choose to share those aspects with me, right?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  So I would say it's been a really wild time, and it's not because it stops on 1 January, but I have the experience that some of that intense, intense, you have to look at the darkness, and you have to relate to your theme in the darkness again and again, even if there is more to it, that it calms down.

  So it's as if you get to breathe a little easier.

  So when will that be?

  At the beginning of next year, and then it goes on from there.

  Mm-hm.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. The eternal processes, or are they eternal?

  Mm-hmm, yes. No, so on one side of the eternal, because things are in motion, but there are also processes that end and settle as a permanently redeemed place that you operate from.

  Mhm.

  And that you might actually also be operating from with, in a partnership or collaborator or with your children.

  Mm.

  So it's possible to land some things. And I would probably always recommend keeping an eye on the things that have landed. Because what often happens is that you have a problem. You have something like a stone in your shoe. You have something that's really bothering you in a specific area.

  You've got something like a stone in your shoe.

  And it can bother you for years. And you can look at or be involved in an incredible number of variations on that theme. And then it's as if when it lands, and you don't think when it finally lands, it might have filled your entire consciousness with conviction, then suddenly it lands and you're through. When you land, it's as if a new aspect comes in, not with something else.

  It's not the same theme.

  Not the same theme, but something different. And that's why it can seem like things never land, and it can make you very discouraged to knock yourself out. But it is possible to land something. So it's actually also about remembering the places that have landed.

  And I often have this with clients when they come up with a new theme and get knocked out, where I remind them, do you remember what we talked about three months ago, where you had been in deep depression with suicidal thoughts and you thought you could never ever live without this relationship or you were afraid you could never ever land the relationship with your child or whatever it could be and just try to think about where you are now with it's not there at all anymore no exactly that you have actually landed

  No

  so if someone wants to call it a domestic success, I would actually see it more as reminding yourself of your capacity m

  that your capacity has expanded and you were able to land it and now you're actually living from a completely different place so you're no longer disturbed there in the same way, because it also reminds you that you've taken on so many portions of disturbances,

  So there's something about taking responsibility for the disturbances you've taken on and exploring and landing, and also making sure that you don't take on other people's disturbances that aren't yours. So there's something about being careful. There's actually something about developing that is really necessary. What is my responsibility? What is not my responsibility?

  Yes, it is my responsibility.

  And here I can see that many people, being the sentient beings that we are, can be very overwhelmed by what's happening in the world too.

  Mm.

  And this is where you can bring in disturbances and increase your own anxiety and anxiety and existential fear and doubt, where it just makes it worse. So what you can't do, for example, and that's not to say that you shouldn't care about what's happening in the world, but you actually have to look at, if something violent happens in the world, can I contribute to the solution? Can I contribute to the healing? And is it my responsibility to contribute to it? Not because you should be, it shouldn't matter, because things in the world never don't matter, but you can end up spending the energy you have on something and get very much involved in something in the world that you could never solve anyway, which actually means that you don't spend your energy on the things you can solve in your close relationships.

  Mm. And it can actually become a way to bypass your problems by magnifying all the feelings that you have that something is completely unfair, completely horrible by constantly seeing it out in the world.

  So maybe before you go on Facebook and talk about all kinds of terrible things, how much are you contributing to the division in the world that you wish wasn't there by talking down that division and splitting it further in yourself and in others? It's a very difficult balancing act.

  Mm.

  So there's something about using your introspection here. Using your tools to figure out how do I live from a place of peace and calm within myself despite the fact that there is still so much going on in the world,

  which is so enormously difficult.

  At the same time, if there is something in the world that you need to contribute to, that you gather the courage to do it, but to find out how.

  Right.

  So what creation projects that have gone wrong are your responsibility and throw yourself into and try to land? And what is not your responsibility?

  Mm.

  Um. And the only one I can figure out, it's really you, but that's really what I help a lot of people with when they come. It's actually figuring out like okay, but what's happening with your mum or your family or what's happening in Gazer, is that something that you should be putting your energy into or are you actually trying to bottle up all those feelings, you think it's all horrible and you're going to go off the rails where you're constantly living in a constant distraction of something that's going on that's not actually helping.

  Mm.

  So in that way it's very, very useful to see where you feel disturbed if you feel disturbed by something in the world on the big hubs

  Putin Trump Gaza, there's enough to go around, it's something about seeing what are the elements that I also feel disturbed by in my in my in my in my in my in my micro life

  mm

  Um...

  and then start there

  and then start there because it would then mean that you could very quickly get into a war with some of those closest to you if they relate to it in the world in a different way than you do. So you can actually prolong this war by playing out this drama with people in your close relationship. That doesn't mean you can't have an opinion and you can't speak up. It's not like that. It's something about following these You can almost get a feeling of hatred towards some of your fellow human beings if they stand in the same place as you do. So that's very interesting to look into. It's basically about following the tension, the tension that's in these themes and then following them down into the depths of powerlessness and powerlessness and hatred and confusion and whatever the hell is down there. Just for a way that you can embrace it in your system and you can keep the tension

  m

  And then know what to do when you get to a more clear place what are you actually going to do here and is it n is it lying around and getting angry and being a mass on Facebook maybe not. Well maybe it is, I have no judgement on that. I would just say that we are called to deal with disruption, because it's like we're going more and more crazy if we don't.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  So it's like we get more and more uh the disruption grows and we can't sleep and it takes over everything. So if we don't want to go completely over the edge, we're forced to look down at what's disturbing us.

  Mm.

  Is there something about looking down into the fact that there may be something meaningful in the individual or the small group you are travelling with, which may be a little invisible compared to the fact that it actually moves something in the consciousness of humanity that someone takes a step towards living in a different way as a family even if it is not

  blown out into the world as a uh even if it can't actually explain us, because the place you're standing

  Mm.

  requires work that many of us don't even understand how it works and can see ourselves in.

  Yes, that's true.

  So there's actually also an art in not capitalising on that, because then it becomes something that stands against something else.

  Yes, that's true.

  We've made eco-airplanes or we have this way of living with hearing and so on.

  Yeah, yeah.

  Um, but actually and that it's okay to stand in a certain kind of silence and stillness and maybe feel the meaningfulness of someone doing it.

  Mm.

  And that it affects the overall field of what is possible for others. Even if it seems invisible. Does it make sense?

  Yes, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, I will, I will.

  So I had a wonderful client, so for him the most meaningful thing is really to find out in his relationship, how they can have a wonderful time together, and how they can allow pain to come up and go through it together, but also be there for their children, so they can allow to go through a growth in it.

  Mm.

  And very few people can do that,

  who are able to do that.

  Mm, yes.

  And paving the way for that.

  Mm.

  is a great gift to humanity in itself.

  Well, that's pioneering.

  It's pioneering work, right?

  M. Yes, it is, yes it is.

  Which is actually, that's enough.

  M. Yes. It's enough. It's a lot of work. It's hard work.

  I mean if you managed to create a nurturing family life where you still have fun and enjoyable and and and also hit, whether it's passionate or or because you're in conflict, and you can land it.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  It's a huge turnaround,

  that it's even possible. Yes, it is.

  Yes, exactly. And it is.

  And it is.

  And it is.

  And that's it. Then I think it's also maybe worth saying to those who stand with their partners and keep trying.

  Mm.

  I think we've said that before too. There are plenty of people out there who want to or plenty of people we're in contact with who want to.

  Yeah.

  It's just that you started out with different premises. And you didn't look at it that way when you met.

  No, they didn't.

  So that's why the concept came in from the right and suddenly you could live in a different way and have a different kind of openness without attacking each other or if you do that, you can find a way to take responsibility and find your way back and there's a new place to stand and more into sexuality and intimacy and things like that.

  Mm.

  But then it becomes difficult and an easier life together is possible.

  Mm.

  And maybe it's worth saying that there will be some relationships that break up because one person wants it and the other one isn't really there or can't see it or it doesn't make sense to the other person.

  That's for sure.

  And we've also seen examples of someone where they make sense for both, but they just don't really for each other to travel with.

  Yeah.

  For other reasons.

  Mm.

  And they both work, you realise that they have to go with each other.

  Yeah, exactly.

  We've come a long way from, how shall we say, my parents' generation, where people stayed together for the sake of the children, which was seen as selfish and considered.

  Mm. er, splitting up. But our take is that it's actually the environment or that's what the plants grow up in. So if there are all sorts of underlying factors, then they grow up in that too. So sometimes it can be best for the children's sake to consider whether you can or should divide it up.

  Yes, definitely. I mean, I have

  even though it sounds really backwards in terms of old-fashioned morals, right?

  Well, I've had, because now we've kind of arrived, now we're starting to see the fruits or side effects of the fact that it's no longer taboo to get divorced. And I've had many adult children of divorced parents who have suffered from it. But I've also had many adult children of couples where the parents stayed together, who have a pent-up anger about being raised in a loveless environment.

  That's right.

  With parents who either had some kind of coldness towards each other.

  Yes, they did.

  And or heated arguments,

  where the kids have to carry the load. We stayed together for your sake, how childish is that, I didn't fucking ask you to do that, why does it have to be on my shoulders? It's as if the adult children see it as an abdication of responsibility that it should be on their shoulders. It was for their sake that they stayed together and were like that. I don't know if it was only positive.

  It was.

  So it's just to say that it's not about getting divorced and not getting divorced. It's really more about diving into it and looking at all the aspects and recognising the consequences that arise from it. Sometimes the consequence is, no, we're not good for each other.

  Mm.

  And sometimes the consequence is, we are good, we can be good for each other, and it takes some work.

  Mm.

  So I definitely saw the relational, uh, has become so it's like the thing where we thought it was just the way it was, then you got married, and then it worked.

  Mm.

  It's never been like that, but it's as if the rug has been completely pulled out from under people. It's a bit obvious, isn't it?

  It's very, very, very clear that it's always moving.

  Mm.

  Um. And you actually have to deal with that movement in everyday life and deal with the things that happen in everyday life.

  So there's something about that, and what should I say, the positive side of who should you actually relate to and have a deeper contact with and who should you not really have much to do with?

  Mm.

  And it seems to be in motion.

  Mm. Very much so.

  So the assumption that the nuclear family is, and those you're biologically related to, that those you have to get up at all costs to connect with are is just as much as it is just as clear that there can be a form of built-in social control even in a country like Denmark, even if it doesn't look like it on the surface

  uh through backbiting and and and gentle exclusion and m

  er

  you shouldn't do that and where you actually where and we've been faced with that and we also know others who say you have to pass it on to your children, that they have to be included in any family context for someone's sake.

  Mm.

  Or do you give them the choice?

  Mm.

  So are they mature enough? Are they in touch enough with themselves? Do they notice things in the environment that are unpleasant to such an extent that you can follow them in? That it usually hasn't been nice to be around when uncle something or other makes snide remarks all the time and gets drunk.

  Mm.

  Or whatever it is that they don't feel nourished.

  Mm.

  We can make some difficult choices. We've made them ourselves. Should we give them the freedom to choose on and off

  Mm.

  or should they be handed the same thing? You should agree to go to the funeral. You should and now think about how it will be and implicitly what the others think and stuff like that.

  Mm.

  Um. And I think we also have meetings where we're like, well, you can stand in a place where you say, well, you understand that the atmosphere is not good in that family, so you understand how the children react to it. So will you push them in or won't you?

  Yes or no. Will you push them in? To avoid an outcry at the other end, right? Or the consequences of not doing it.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  With pattern breaking, right?

  Well, yes.

  There will always be consequences to breaking a pattern, but there are also consequences to not doing it.

  Yes, there are.

  And I think that's actually my point, whatever you choose. That there it can be, and it can be fine to still maintain something with this family if it makes sense, but every choice you make has a ping-pong effect on something else. So I think, I think that's what I try to talk to all my clients about if it's something that somebody has like I can't just find a choice that doesn't have these things that I have to deal with that doesn't have these negative side effects that nobody has

  so it's actually about finding out who you are what you can stand within what is the right thing to do here depending on what you get in and the way you sense yourself not

  I'm sorry I didn't have my microphone on just then I hope you could hear me

  I actually don't think it could.

  Yes, Mette, will the processes go on forever, or what will happen to it? Yes, no, there will continue to be movement, but I find that it's possible to have themes that you've been working on, maybe for years, that actually land and are suddenly just complete. It's just finished. There's simplicity in you. And the interesting thing is that you may have had a lot of difficulty, pain and hassle, but something and as such when it lands, the next thing comes up, a new theme comes up or something you spot the next thing when now I've solved this thing I had in relation to my mum who has been nagging me for 10 years now I also want a deeper connection to my daughter or something, right?

  m

  and then you can kind of forget because then it's a new kind of disorder you go into what I might recommend to you here is actually that when you kind of remember and I do that with a lot of clients where I remind them, you can remember where you were three months ago where you were almost self-doubting you were almost starting on psychotropic drugs and you were you know and caged in there and right now you're actually doing quite well and can do your job. And you know that thing that was there, it doesn't bother you anymore

  and it's just like, well, it's like now I'm not disturbed, it's like now there's this thing over here that's just making a mess, but it's the same

  it's the same will it's the same courage it's the same ability to dive into what's difficult relate to it surrender to it embrace it meet it land it it's exactly the same thing it takes to land the others and it won't be endless but there's another thing that's important here it's actually having to figure out what is my responsibility take care of and what is not my responsibility take care of? Because if you look at the world, just reading the news or talking to a friend or talking to a colleague, you will quickly, you can quickly get sucked into some mess and you can get to you, I'm not going to help you make that complaint or I'm going to demonstrate for gases. There's nothing wrong with helping a close friend with the family court or getting involved in the Middle East conflict as such. But it's just something about, you have to kind of know where your responsibilities involve you in, because they're all distractions. So if you and other disruptions that you can't do anything about and that aren't yours, if you throw yourself into them and thus ignore the disruptions that are yours to deal with, then your life will become a constant disruption because then it feels like it will never end because you think it's your job to make sure that the Middle East conflict ends. You can't. It's not a one-man show that can stop it. You can take the disruptions that are closer to local. and kind of project them out into the big ones in the world. So use your focus out there that doesn't seem, stop right now, that's 1000 years old. And that's not to say that it doesn't need to be solved, but you have to, it actually takes an extreme amount of courage and discipline and discernment between what's yours to take care of and what you can hold compassion for that you can't do anything about right now. Because if you go into all sorts of emotions about a big conflicted world you can't do anything about and drag it home with you, then you may find yourself at war with both your partner and your children and your close family, who may have a different attitude to this than you do.

  Mm.

  So I think you should see it more as right now, and the world has probably always been like that, but especially right now the world is very noisy.

  Mm.

  So pay close attention to what noise you're letting in and why and what you can contribute to make it more harmonious or to land it or to end something. So it's actually possible to end something. Even if you're at war with your ex.

  Mm.

  Can you get to a place where everything in the external practical can be finished, so we minimise the conflicts, you then work on all your old grudges, feelings of hatred, feelings misunderstood, feelings of being belittled, all that stuff, which may be true enough, but you actually take ownership of all these feelings, so that you actually pull yourself out of that fight. If you want to do something good for the world, it's a billion times better than demonstrating for Gaza. It's basically taking care of the war you have in yourself with others. That's the way we reduce war in the world.

  Or else...

  we just put more petrol on that Saint Hans book.

  And that's probably the hardest exercise for us humans, because we feel very strongly about many things.

  What do you contribute by doing that?

  By taking care of your own.

  Mm.

  Like I see these when I see these disturbances energetically. I know that there are people and war and all that, but when I see it, it can be, for example, if I help a person who is in a very, very difficult interpersonal conflict. It may be that you don't save and the person goes into some of these states that disturb you know, like the person can't sleep or the xen is constantly on their mind, or the conflict with the xen around children, or whatever it may be on their mind. When I kind of guide the person into this, when I see it energetically, it says something like this, you know, key bundle of frequencies that are quivering.

  Mm.

  Um. And they're completely tied in and fighting each other, if you like. So it's a war in microcosm, right?

  Mm.

  So that means a war between many people want that, so you could like explode it out to many thousands of millions of people who are at war, right?

  Mm.

  So it's actually getting a person helped, assisted to a place where he or she makes peace with the difficult situation they are in. And by making peace Peace Peace, I don't mean something superficial, I forgive you, and then we won't talk about it anymore. S*** peace. You may actually, it may well be that you make peace emotionally and at the same time make a case in the state society. It might be because you think it's actually the best thing to do for the child. If you still take but but I I don't have my I can say my I'm not able to step out of the fight and it affects the child. The I can take better care of the child. Then it may well be the right thing to do, even though it may seem like a conflict escalator.

  But if it is, that in the long run it brings more peace in the sense that you get away from each other and the child has a place to be and because you haven't been able to land this for years, it's actually a solution that contributes to the end peace you have inside you where you see your ex you see you see them with compassion you understand why he or she reacts the way he or she does but you no longer engage in the fight you try to settle all the places where you enter the fight where you can feel there is a hatred there is a desire to make revenge or whatever the hell it may be you take care of that while you deal with your thing on the outside, that now needs to be dealt with. So you still have the courage to do what needs to be done. Which may well be that you have a little, I actually think it's best if the child is with me, or I actually think it's best if the child is less with me. That may well be what you're getting at. And it may well be that it hurts. You might reach a place where you say, well, it's actually best for everyone if the child is with their mum or dad, because that's what the child wants, no matter what my personal feelings are on it.

  So that's actually what I help people do, is to get some clarity in this muddy field of conflict. Finding the insight that doesn't come from me. I have I can't give it to them, because nobody can give it to them. They can land it themselves, they can access it themselves. But I can help create calm in that chaos,

  where the insights come. And then I can help lay out a battle plan for fine, if that's kind of where you're going, how can you most easily take those steps in that direction to create that reality around it?

  I mean, yeah.

  So that is, if we can deal with this, start dealing with this between two people, first

  not fighting each other, then over time we'll start to be able to manage that we don't fight each other in groups. But we have to start there. M

  you want to do better in Ukraine and better in Gaza. Look at all your close relationships and where you contribute to war with yourself and with others. Take care of that.

  Then you are helping. You'll help with all the crisis impulses. So all those things that keep on cutting and cutting and cutting and keep on creating war or or this friction

  between people and nations. But that's micro macro.

  So it's a big and important job to do. Actually, I would say that's the most important thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  Yeah.

  And that's also why it's the hardest,

  because that's what it jumps out of.

  Yes, it does. It is and it can be a lot it can be a lot so it's much easier sometimes to go out and feel wronged and feel and and some of some victims, because it's and it's someone also so there are some who sacrifice for dictator and everything else. It's just a matter of finding out if you have a dictator yourself or if you let others be a dictator in your neighbourhood

  then start there.

  Mm.

  If there is a leader or manager at work who exposes you or others to being such a mini dictator. Then do something about it. You can do something about it. M

  You can stand up for it. You can increase your system in it.

  You can't do much about Putin.

  There's something here too, which I think a lot in alternative circles, like maybe a misunderstanding that you've attracted everything you experience. Can't you just

  Yes, it's very very very very simplistic, because it's like the only one there is in the universe is you. So it's a bit like when you're at a workplace and you have to go and get a soda from a vending machine. The vending machine falls on you and you break your leg. Have you ever had that happen to you? Someone also installed it incorrectly. And there are a lot of people involved in it that don't or you know. So it's a very simplistic and somewhat

  It's kind of an immature stage that we all have to go through in terms of just starting to relate. It's important that we start to relate to our own reality. That it's good enough. But it's not if you're in a bus and there's an accident and you think that was good for me, I should learn something from that. What about the 110 other people who were in that, right? Were they just statistics in your reality? I mean, that makes sense.

  What about all the people who took a tsunami in Thailand way back or

  Yes, exactly. Well, that

  the ones who lived close to Starburst. Was it because they had someone they were attracted to or what?

  Yes, that's way too simplistic. It's... it's... it's...

  it's such a state in children's development where they think the sun is following them, right? Exactly.

  When they walk.

  Yes, exactly. Yes, that's right. So there's something about getting out of that one.

  Yeah, yeah.

  That's why you can

  something about there are many other free wills here. Exactly. There are many free wills,

  and some of them need to have a clear door in their head and a boundary set, because someone who has been abusive to others has and is also abusive to you. There's something to be said for someone setting a boundary with them in the big games, right?

  Yes. Yes, there is. And it's something when there are more people, when there are more people who dare to speak out against narcissistic behaviour and psychopathic behaviour, and say, no, you're not right there. No, you're not allowed to do that.

  It can do something, it can also do something through generations, right?

  Yes, exactly. Can you elaborate on that a bit? So it's not just about dissolving, you could say, generational trauma. It's also, well, we have some pretty cool examples of that right now, I think. That French woman who was gang-raped, who has chosen to come forward.

  Mm.

  And why has she done that? Well, it's because she wants to give other women the courage to speak out. The same goes for some of those who have come forward in the PF Pitt case.

  Yeah, that's right. Nexus, you said her with the documentary.

  Yes, she did. That also goes for Nexium, which is such a cult. Yeah. You can go on Netflix and watch

  Nexum. An interview with one of the people who came forward and said, well, it's about giving others the courage to see those patterns

  so they don't change

  that are in something that can become a cult. Maybe it's not even that you don't realise it in the first place.

  Yes, exactly.

  Um, so there's something about that.

  There's something about you don't just have to be all alone in your own experience and you've created everything and imprinted everything bad.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  So...

  So it must be something inside me when I had an island that was psychologically abused by my ex-partner. No, not necessarily. There are people who do that. There are people who have sadistic traits or

  who have no empathy. Where it doesn't exist in their universe.

  No, it doesn't. So actually, sometimes it's also what I do when I work with people. We go in and examine the guilt and the guilt of the shame of having ended up in something. Yes.

  And it's actually something I've created myself. It's just that we are co-creators of many things. But let's go in and investigate that. And sometimes they land sometimes the answer is I couldn't see the signs because the person was extremely skilful at manipulating.

  I couldn't see the signs.

  So even though I had loving parents and stuff like that, I had no knowledge of that. I couldn't I couldn't see it, and then I got too far involved.

  Now I can see it. So I won't be doing that again.

  Yes, you won't. You carry something with you here for the sisters, you don't want to

  Yes, exactly.

  So it's more about I would say it's more about pattern recognition. And what you then have what seems to have been inbuilt, um, and which unfortunately can also be a bit watered down, especially in the New Age, is that there is a potential, meaningfulness in everything. Mm.

  I would say that there is a potential for you to find something that is meaningful to you. That doesn't mean that what you have been subjected to rape is meaningful.

  I mean, that's rubbish.

  Mhm.

  But you can get to a place where you live on without that trauma. And so for some, there might be a meaningfulness that arises in them in their examination of it.

  But it's just something you have to be careful with when someone has experienced something terrible. You have to make sense of it. It can feel very f.

  Why have you attracted it? Yes. Yes. We also have examples for people where we've seen that they've had past lives where they've been cursed to varying degrees, but it's just not everyone that's like that up things exist in the world independent of you.

  Yeah, that's true. And my experience is that karma is not in the sense that it's not something like because you killed someone last life then you come here and you have to try it. So it's too much too simplistic.

  M

  it's more about the fact that we are carriers, there are some inherited dynamics that we can be drawn into and that we can then wake up to and then we can have the courage to do something about it. M

  it's much better to see it that way rather than having such a guilt theme,

  because as we've also talked about in the development journey of the shawl, it's not a learning experience. It's more of a a a a a

  a maturing of the shawl or

  Yes, it is.

  Yes. It's approached as it enters a context. It's more the context it's in

  that's interesting. What's going on on the ground?

  Yeah, I think it's...

  I think it's also maybe what kind of people who think you're listening to us and who have enjoyed what we do? It's not for everyone.

  No, it bloody well isn't. And that's the way it is. And that's great.

  It's as if some people are saying, well, I've been looking for something that was both critical and could take a scientific as well as a psychological angle, but also an energetic spiritual angle, if you will,

  and where there is room for all approaches in relation to who comes, so if

  Yes, there is no judgement. You have to be vegan, or you have to be vegan, or you can't There's no such thing, there's no syllabus that you have to read up on, and then

  No, there isn't,

  so the approach itself is quite simple, but it can come out of what can seem very complex to some people and it can keep unfolding. And it's basically getting help to illuminate what is confusing and difficult and staying in it until it lands.

  M

  ooh, and it's not just in the relational aspect that I've seen in recent years. I've seen a few individuals who, when they started out, had a very difficult time.

  Yes, they did.

  Erm, and actually maybe ended up in a place where they were kind of like, well, I've actually also driven out that I must have attracted or driven myself out or you know, is there something evil about me or have I kind of done something. Um, where the more we've unpacked, the more we've unpacked, and they've woken up to the fact that it's not because I've said it to them. It's simply that they themselves have realised the work that has been done in such a way that it's as if they go from feeling burdened and victims of something to having a greater sense that they are co-players in shedding light on some human dynamics and mechanisms. limitations, which are very painful, that people will bear. And that just as one individual takes a chunk out of these different aspects helps the whole earth. They are, they help pave the energy pathway for it to be possible to step out of some of this.

  So it's like,

  and here a meaningfulness can arise in the painful.

  But not to stay in it. It's also because at some point they step out that it gets better. So it's coupled with the fact that they actually start to feel better too. The anxiety decreases, the physical symptoms decrease

  um, the different odours. It gives them such energetic extreme pain begins to subside.

  So there's something about the people who come to us are in a place where they are actually often used to being in extreme pain.

  Yes, they are.

  But are willing to try to go somewhere else.

  But because they are organised in such a way that they seek out where there is something that can be worked on, they feel the new place where there is a possibility of new pain.

  M

  So there aren't many people who come to you and say, can you tell me that I have a tumour here. Can you just remove it? No, I can't.

  Um. That's kind of not the deal.

  The deal is, you're ready to take some steps. No, it's not.

  And the big context is that it's noticeable, because they're also kind of looking for the next place all by themselves

  m

  at that place. And then there's the question of when to start withdrawing from some of the places that are also difficult? Because there can almost be such an automatic attempt at everything around you in all relationships, where part of the pain is actually being able to stand

  from the heart and then looking at someone who is totally shut down and no matter how you try to communicate with them, they continue to conflict or fall further into i i i i

  in the darkness, if you will.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  Um. And being able to think, who do I need, who can I lift myself up with, who can I be something for?

  Mm.

  Um. And that's where we go back to the beginning of the conversation here, that there are some who expect when you start to open up and get more light, more consciousness, they hammer you even harder until you are so strong that you go around it and don't get involved.

  Yes, exactly.

  And then it doesn't go in anymore.

  No, exactly.

  And that's one of the and I can see some of them, for some it's in the relationship, for some it's mum, for some it's someone in the family, for some it's a boss or a colleague. where over time they become more and more immune to it and can more and more say no.

  Yes, exactly.

  And they get worried in the past about, oh, if I say something, they'll listen to me, and then they'll come back. Okay, now I spoke up and said this, and then I was fucking respected, and now I'm in the other place.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or I spoke up, and no, I didn't listen to them at all. It's okay, it's okay. I can say no, and then they can't. There's no guarantee that the other person will see and hear me, right?

  Well, I'm talking about, for example, in a workplace, someone who

  had the experience that, uh,

  but yes, also that you can stand in not being understood at all and be able to stand in being able to stand in that there is a painfulness in the other person looking at your child in a completely different way that you can feel is completely off, and the child shrinks at that look at the child.

  Mm.

  Um. So there's also something about being able to endure pain.

  Yes, yes.

  And being able to stand in the fact that we're in a time of transition here, right?

  You're actually something like that, and that's actually one of the things I find hardest about the people who start to open up. Because when you start to open up about your own limitations, the limitations of others become quite clear to you. And this is where you can step in. Well, then I just have to explain to them where their limitations are, and I just have to shout it out to them, and then they have to deal with it. It's not safe. It's not at all certain that the person is interested in having your view on their limitations. And they may not agree with you at all. That person can live so much in their own reality and be sure that it's you that's wrong.

  Mm.

  So that's actually part of what can be extremely confusing.

  Something about being able to tolerate that others think there's something wrong with you, and then being able to live on and say,

  well, they're allowed to think that. So where should I, what are my, where are my ethics in relation to

  where should I engage in it? Should I even engage with the fact that someone thinks something about me?

  M Yes, exactly.

  But that's what we're talking about going from horizontal to vertical, right?

  There's something to it.

  There's definitely something to it.

  But maybe that's for another episode.

  But you touched on compassion and empathy and the difference. Compassion could be labelled compassion, but it's not quite the same thing.

  We could call it compassion.

  We could call it compassion.

  So I think maybe it's important because we have something here with the evolution from empathy. Into compassion or compassion. Compassion is a term that lives in Buddhism.

  Mm.

  And for those of you who have studied Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism and meditated on it for many years, which I have done without being an expert in any way, it is something that has been scientifically studied later. That is to say, it's actually, they actually got it right, that you can have different ways of empathising with others.

  Yes, exactly.

  And I thought maybe we should round it off, because it's perhaps very nice to have a conceptual framework for it.

  Mhm.

  Would you like to say something about the difference between empathy and let's call it compassion here with let's call it compassion because it rhymes nicely with star

  but they are related emotions and what I have found out by going in and researching it is empathy

  taps into the pain centres in the brain.

  Mm.

  That is, you have a

  You feel other people's pain.

  Yes, you do.

  And that can actually stress your own system and that can lead to burnout. Let's say you're a nurse or whatever.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Also with your child. If you have a huge amount of empathy for your child all the time

  and when your child hits So you want that, but also because your child sometimes has difficulties that are not related to you. This can cause you to take on too much responsibility in terms of removing your pain or

  The sympathy will lead to more anxiety and worry, right?

  Yes, exactly.

  But neurologically, as I understand the research I've read up on, is that when you scan people for empathy and compassion, empathy is pain,

  you share the experience of pain.

  Mm. Exactly.

  And it comes from something other than the heart

  chakra, heart area, where compassion, it's, uh

  it works more on the heart level, if you like. Um,

  it's that you can recognise people's suffering.

  Yes, you can recognise people's suffering.

  But you're in a place where because you don't take it in, you can decide if it's something you should deal with.

  Exactly.

  And that's where we come back to. What do you really have, what do you really need

  Mm.

  with the suffering you see all over the place?

  Mm.

  And in Buddhism, the Buddha keeps being reborn to all the suffering out of the world. You may not be the Buddha, but maybe it's something like saying, what's your chunk, what's your bite here?

  Exactly. Right. where you have to create a field around which people should be in it

  and then be able to say well I saw this uh I feel your pain can understand that but it requires life experience to be able to see pain in others without going into it because you have to be able to recognise frequencies when you don't want to

  Exactly

  So it's about not taking over other people's conditions but still being able to see them and in some cases actually be like, well, I've already dealt with that person and I don't have to deal with them any more, so I have a distance and have very little interaction with them.

  Yes, because if you open up and start taking responsibility for yourself, there will be some relationships that your old self has formed where you interacted or formed relationships in a different way, where you perhaps created relationships based on sitting and sharing suffering. You took this suffering and shared it with each other, right?

  Yes, you did.

  The more you open up, it's going to be quite uncomfortable for you because you realise that you don't actually want to, you don't want to sit and share your suffering with someone else so that they have to listen to what you can't solve yourself. It will feel very unloving.

  You can,

  you can save with a person, but then it will be because you have such a sincere human being. Okay, I'm dealing with this. This hurts, or this is difficult, or this at work. You have some skills here. Will you help me shed some light on this?

  Yes, I'll do that.

  And then the person will use some of their life energy to say something and ask questions and bark something. And then you'll be like: ‘Okay, fucking awesome. Now I have a little more clarity. Now I can go back and do something. Instead of coming back a week later with the same problem that you're now smearing the person with.

  So you don't actually want to bother anymore. Just sit and talk about repeating a condition that isn't being addressed.

  It's uncomfortable for you. It also means you don't want to take it in from anyone.

  And if you've then formed some relationships with someone who doesn't actually want to or is there and it doesn't make any sense to them, they still want to. The world is the way it is. We alleviate it by sitting and talking about some suffering or talking about someone else or doing something. each other's pain

  and sharing each other's pain equally.

  Mm.

  Um. Then there will be some relationships that aren't difficult for you to be with, and then you may be forced to actually withdraw from them. Because you might say it out loud, but that person might get angry or take it as criticism or something else that makes the relationship difficult, right?

  Yes, but I guess you could also say that empathy is empathising with the fact that someone is an idiot or a pig or someone has some victims or something like that,

  m

  It can feel like there's almost a moral imperative to go down and show it. So you're actually going to do some splits.

  Yes, you're going to do some splits.

  You go into some dualisms.

  Mm.

  Um. If you show empathy for a group that has been over But you can actually go up in frequency and get the heart involved and then get into another state where you can see the pain in it.

  Yes, you can.

  Without apologising in any way to the person who has committed the abuse.

  Yes, without apologising in any way. Exactly. It's so

  So it's actually But the problem is that sometimes it requires life experience and being able to recognise what's happening out there.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  So if you have a navidad about life and what's difficult and have thrown yourself headlong into many things and haven't processed it

  or you haven't thrown yourself into difficult things,

  you won't recognise it. And then your

  developmental response is to get tangled up in things that get split up into dualisms.

  Mm.

  Until you're ready to put it back together again.

  Mm.

  And get an overview.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  Does that make sense?

  Yes, it does. Very much so.

  The other thing, it's something about the time perspective in it. Empathy is here and now, we sit and talk together, and then we react and get angry, and something has to happen and things like that, whereas compassion is more, it's more long term. So if you have a conversation with a person with compassion, compassion, it would be longer term.

  Mm.

  Is that something that needs to be addressed? Is it something that needs to be done? We need to go in and work, should we look at it? I mean, you chose this partner at some point. You didn't see all the flags. Now it's gone to hell. I'm just, I'm having a baby together.

  Even if you didn't know, can you still take responsibility to that extent and say, is there anything I can do to pull myself out of this and or should I keep sharing how much it hurts?

  Mm.

  And really that I'm in a position against.

  Mm.

  So when you come from compassion, there's a bit of an imperative that there's something longer term. So if a person keeps complaining about something, you can actually say with compassion and compassion you can say: ‘Well, we've talked about that before.’ Then it's something you want to do something about, because what I bring to the table can So you'll still hurt as long as you're in it.

  Mm.

  And I know there are some places, there are some situations where you can't move away from them.

  I'm well aware of that. These are special situations. But there are also situations where a lot of people can't see that they actually as if because they're buried their pain and they don't get their head above water, Mm.

  Then they can't see their options either. So there's a correlation here.

  Exactly. Yes, exactly.

  Um...

  And that's actually why I use energy work.

  Yeah, that's right.

  Um, because talking to a person who is completely overwhelmed by a conflict, completely overwhelmed by being in a relational conflict or overwhelmed by having to deal with someone, right, who swears at you and stuff like that, right? There's actually something about making choices based on that. Making a plan to deal with it when you're so overwhelmed. It's very unlikely that the person will do anything about it or remember it because you're so overwhelmed. There's actually something about getting the person landed first.

  There's that.

  To have some kind of calm, because now it's calmer.

  And then because there's this thing that comes naturally, there's also a gentleness towards your younger self when you entered the relationship, there's also a gentleness towards the aspects where you can see that you think you've become a monster towards this person. It doesn't matter if you come out of a relationship where the person might have some small narcissistic traits or something else, I hear from everyone who has an interest, who can be called to do introspection and look at themselves, there will also be some situations and some aspects that will have come up in this relationship that will make you cringe, so to speak. It was really phew, my own monster came up, or phew, I could feel that I was plunged into my own darkness.

  Yes, that's right. Or let myself down. Continuing to or having let my child down by not speaking up or whatever it may be. There can be different elements in it, but there can be a huge number of things in it.

  So it's actually about addressing them. And it's actually as if addressing all these aspects of your own reality makes you more antifragile. I wasn't what you've got there uh like not just resistant or resilient, but really you know it's like I'm stronger because of this resistance. Here it will be easier for you to see clearly what needs to be done. Okay I have to do this. Okay, I have to do this. My child has to take responsibility for the other parent now. I have to pull out and try to put myself in the but or whatever it may be.

  Mm.

  Um, so the answers will come pretty clearly to you about what the right thing to do is.

  Then the next thing is to go out and do it and have the courage to actually do it. It's then the next thing is not to take the reballs. That's the next thing.

  The next thing. Exactly.

  But it's very, very big empowerment really because I would say that having compassion and helping to land a person so they find the answers themselves and go out and do it

  It also gives the person a sense of their own strength.

  It does. Then there will be relapses into these heavier emotions and split eyes.

  And when we talk split, we're talking dualisms, opposites. Erm,

  good evil.

  Good evil. Uh, so anything that you drill down into, that there's some evil out there.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  Or and you're the good one.

  Yeah, yeah.

  Anything where it's opposites like

  Mm.

  man's woman and so on. So whatever. Mm.

  Um.

  What's it called? Me versus the X or you know.

  Exactly.

  Those things. But the work that we do is actually working to integrate them. So instead of it being bad that you do it like there's a lot of traditions. It's like phew you have to be the heart and then everything is good. And if you are if you feel any of this, see any of this, then you are ego. And then phew,

  you should get one that you hug for a long time and be a little bit, it can be a little bit, erm

  But this ego thing is, um, all these experiences we have, they get fragmented into these sub-elements.

  Mm.

  So in this work, we pick them up.

  Mm. So they are integrated. So there are situations where the extremes have their place.

  Yes, there are.

  But therefore, when the decision is made whether to activate them, it's for a unified place inside.

  A conscious

  from the heart.

  Exactly.

  And it just sounds like such a, well for the heart, it's just a cliché, but here it's actually quite practical that things are unified in one point

  in your consciousness, rather than you go into one and you go into the other.

  M. M.

  Um, but you can see, you can see the variants, you can see the separation, you can also see it together.

  Mm.

  That's actually one of the things that I think over time has become stronger and stronger in my process.

  Yeah, yeah.

  Um. And I also think we see a lot of people getting closer to that.

  Yes, we are. Also between us, because we've also worked on the whole relationship. So we've had our own challenges there, right?

  Mm.

  And we've experienced that too. So what we've actually tried to practice is that every time we hit an edge in something,

  Yeah, yeah.

  What can we do to land it? So that it's fixed permanently.

  Mhm.

  So that in the future we have a lightness and humour about the differences that exist.

  Yes, that's right. So the word anti-fragility, I think we've brought it up before, but I think it might be good to bring it up again.

  So robustness is you can withstand things.

  Mm.

  And it's very much either/or.

  Mm.

  Um. But what if you think about the concept in a different way? And that is if you imagine the antifragile system is one that re-establishes even if it breaks in some places, it grows back together. It's like a bone,

  if it's not put together in a way where

  it can grow back together properly, but then it actually gets stronger by breaking down. So you train hard and your muscles partially break down and then they come back stronger.

  M

  if you train too hard, then what I would say is that the muscles will break down later on and something will happen. You get injuries.

  There's something like that,

  there's a lot of pressure.

  how robustness it's like it's already defined in advance. So some are more robust than others. And then the theory that you can make people robust.

  Mm.

  But if you look at it this way, instead of you growing together and you become stronger, um, and that means that you actually become better at experiencing the stress around you. You're not as affected by it because over time you become better at dealing with it.

  Mm.

  But then you push the boundaries of what you work with.

  Mm.

  And that's where you can look back and you'll see that there were many situations that I used to be strongly affected by, which right now I take on a little more in terms of what I can stand and take.

  Exactly.

  Um, so it's actually that the system becomes stronger through exposure to stress and disturbances, right?

  Erm..,

  yes. And here there's an important component that there can be such a, you know, exposure therapy, that if you're just exposed enough times to something you fear, then you become resilient or robust in terms of being able to handle it.

  Yes, that's what I've learnt.

  And that's where it's like, uh, we need to get the energy part right, because if you have a trauma about something and you expose yourself to something that activates that trauma. That's not going to make you robust. You can become hardened. You can let it in and harden yourself, but it doesn't help. So there's something about the different variants or frequencies, like I'm talking about the war variants, when you have a conflict between two people who are fighting and stuff like that, right? It's actually something about getting an energetic look at saying, okay, what is there, what is contained in this? What's causing you to get super anxious and you get an anxiety of a fandom or or you want to kill someone or you know, you dissociate, and then we follow them down. Then we follow them down in so in person open up to it, follow them down until they land. And that's what helps you to be able to withstand coming back out and being in the same situation and realising that you've moved.

  Yeah, that's right.

  Because we actually go in and relate to all of these frequencies, right?

  Yes, we do. So the big difference is whether you take challenges, whether you dare to take risks, and you become more courageous in taking risks.

  Mm.

  And or dare to take them on some difficult things that were so difficult before.

  Mm. Where you now have just like bring it over, baby.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's actually what decides it. So one thing is to say where we closed this, and then you come up and think unfortunately the approach to psychology that's in society is that you have to be a productive member of society and then back to work. And if you get far enough and get some medication and some counselling, I know I might offend someone, but the level of ambition isn't much higher than actually getting back to work and being able to function within the roles and frameworks that exist in a workplace or some family. There won't be m

  The vision is not so much bigger than that.

  No, it is.

  Um. But what if you transform and improve through that stress and shock?

  Mm.

  So you can handle more. And then we come back to this question of what do you seek out? What do you start seeking out?

  Mm.

  How much will you expose yourself to if you create some space around you in this way?

  Mm.

  And you know you can stand in it and someone says, I don't want that person anymore, and you kind of dismantle some relationships or whatever it is.

  Mm.

  Then you start to have something here that you can work with, so what do you do with it? Yes, exactly. What what what what this this this goes towards this space this this

  to you can you can you can stand in a conflict, face the head to come from your point of view, understand the other person, still set boundaries, get things shut down or leave the situation, shake it off, move on.

  Right.

  So what are you going to use that capacity for?

  Yes, because you have an increased capacity.

  Yes, you have. Much increased capacity,

  and that's the difference between resilience or robustness on the one hand

  and antifragility, fragility, which is fragility, anti-fragility, right?

  M.

  So there's something about that mindset that might be worth considering, how do you approach it?

  M. Exactly.

  In relationship and then taking this look back, when you've worked with things, um, you just shut yourself off and become more and more like, I can't handle the world, but you feel inside there are places where you should get out and deal with people, but you can also feel you can't handle it.

  Mm.

  Because you're taking in too much.

  Yes, that's right. Then you could say that there may be a longing to be able to do something more out in the world or with some people or

  Mm, yes,

  there are actually many of those people,

  and I would like us to pass that on to our children.

  Yes, that's right. Because that way

  so they don't get too isolated.

  That was the talk we had about Steiner where in wonderful universe. But it's still also protected to a degree where m

  Mm.

  that if a foreign object comes in like an iPad and stuff like that, then they're completely f*****.

  Erm, you know, or that young people drink or look, you know, boys between 11 and 13 are already watching porn there. So the whole thing about how do you deal with all the stuff that hits them in between, these viruses. So it's going to be like this

  It'll be like when the Spaniards came to America, and all sorts of viruses came in, and then half of them start dropping like flies because they don't have

  Mm.

  I know the immune system to deal with all these things, social media and cyberbullying and scams and people paedophiles and everything.

  So how do we get the kids to be in a place where they can deal with these things without it scaring the hell out of them, that they can be like, now there's this. Well, you know, like on the savannah and that thing, that thing, that predator, they'll go around it.

  Yes, exactly.

  Rather than it becoming such a protected world, which is actually extremely vulnerable.

  Yes, that's right.

  And fall over when you move on.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It becomes fragile. It becomes extremely fragile. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  And it makes the parents extra anxious, because at some point they can't shield these children. They can't keep it up, and then they become extremely anxious. So their angels settle and stuff like that, right? So that's the thing about this again, which leads back to

  how do we deal with, what is our responsibility of anxiety and stuff like that, and how do we activate further anxiety that the world is a dangerous place, which then just creates such a wildfire.

  You can give an example of how we handle it with the kids in a place where many schools are like this or where there are people who feel excluded, for example, it's part of human behaviour someone is excluded, excommunicated and it hurts in different ways

  should I then take care of the fact that there is a child who is excluded it's actually something about finding out how to get them out of pain together with that person hurts me to see to get them hooked on but is it at all something I should take care of it my responsibility and have to play and make play dates with the child who has a hard time

  mm Um, and if that's the case, then the child can, that is, if it feels right, but what the adults are going to put in, that's how it should be.

  Mm.

  Um, but there's something deeper human in all this, which is to say, they're a school class, so they'll see the bullying, they'll see people who are rude to them, they'll see all sorts of things,

  and they could stand in it and not engage with it all.

  Mm.

  Instead of us trying to solve it through some kind of pedagogical approach, if we sit and talk, which is fine and good.

  But it has to be there, we just can't expect it to solve everything.

  It won't. They will experience something when they reach a certain age. It's written for the adults. It's snitches, get snitches.

  Yeah, it's snitches, get snitches.

  Um, you will experience, there will be some of your classmates at some point that end up, what do I want to say crime or a gang or

  Mm.

  So therefore stick to that world M

  and be able to deal with it and stand in it rather than be afraid of it.

  Mm, yeah. We have to deal with that, and we can't stand to see that we think that if we can just talk about it with children, they won't end up there. It's a huge misconception, because children are also carriers of all this stuff, inherited like everyone else we are. So we just have to and that doesn't mean we shouldn't intervene if there's a bad situation. It's not that it's not that and it doesn't mean that it can be wonderful. It can be wonderful if there is a child who has felt left out and it makes sense to not let play dates. That's great. It just doesn't make sense to play if you if your child if you have to make camp speeches and you can feel the kids don't know but it's because then we have to polish our halo and then you have one of those and then you can feel it getting weird and it just makes it worse so we just have to look at things as they are

  rather than thinking that we can find some kind of pedagogical framework that removes all the things we don't like.

  Mm.

  All adults, all adults, all children will fight and some will feel their boundaries have been crossed. Some will feel like their boundaries are being violated. That's what this game is. And it's not even that it's this we haven't created project we simply haven't nailed yet.

  Yes, sometimes things have to be said out loud that are transgressive and the battle has to be taken in relation to saying no.

  Yes, exactly.

  Erm, also in groups like that.

  Yes, that's right.

  So it's not because you have to leave it alone necessarily.

  No, definitely not. Definitely not. It doesn't mean you have to leave it alone. You just have to look deeper into what's there, what's here? Yes, there's a bit of who, who am I bonding with, who am I getting along with, and no, you're not going to get along with everybody because not everybody is going to get along with you.

  You're not. And you can't solve that by making planned rental agreements,

  and it can't, it won't be solved by that.

  Mm.

  So there's something there, there's something else, and that brings us back to what do we bring ourselves, and what do our children bring, what can we do, what do we have, what do our children bring that we need to help them with, and what do they bring themselves

  further, right?

  And what do they take in from us? What feelings of anxiety and anxiety and a sea of everything, it takes in for us because we deal with it, right? Which we're also going to be able to give you so it's it's it's big sometimes completely overwhelming.

  But all of this comes back to end today with hope.

  Some of the hope in this is actually to see our children standing in a different place in relation to being able to stand to see these things. And we can feel them making some choices that we support them in relation to some of these things.

  Yes, they are. They bring some awareness to your theme that they bring themselves. Whether they themselves are going to feel too fragile if someone is a bit harsh, or whether they themselves are going to be too harsh towards others,

  because they want one or the other,

  right?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  So it's actually about seeing them on that journey. How can you support them on that journey, so that in the long term they themselves start to take responsibility for those elements in them? M

  because

  and they will be unique in that journey, probably in their class.

  That is, those of you who have children going through it.

  Mm.

  They will also have to stand in a world that is and where there is less consciousness and less uh trading on things more let's face it. They will have to stand in it as they will have to stand in it and figure out what do I engage in and what do I not? What is necessary? What is important?

  Mm.

  For me, it has something to do with when they reach, you know, 10, 11, 15, 13 years, so

  there will be something about what should I get involved in? Who do I want to be in a group with?

  M. Mm.

  Where does it not feel good?

  Mm.

  And it's okay not to be included, and it does and to be able to tolerate the pain of not being included in a group. and then be able to live from there and figure out, what do I do then?

  Yes, you have to be able to see the pain in the other person that you might not, you know, that you're just like, well, it's just not someone I want to be with. There's nothing evil about it, so there can be a pain in the other person. And the same if there's someone you're hungry for, you could be really good friends, but it just doesn't happen. It's just not there.

  It's kind of like I can see that it hurts you, but that's why I still want to be your friend. So basically that's how it is.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

  Like you do in dating, but that's how it will be with friends as well.

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's right.

  And there will be some pain in that

  exactly

  that needs to be dealt with.

  Yes, exactly.

  And if you can't deal with that, then you're going to have a hard time breaking friendships or a hard time saying no and letting things run large parts of your life that you're not comfortable with. And you won't know what's on the other side of who you'll meet. Exactly.

  Different relationships and love

  in sex. But if and when an antifragile comes in, can you stand it? Then you start to have an agency. You start to have a freedom to be able to make some choices and choose who you want to connect with. Mm.

  More consciously without it feeling forced.

  Yes, exactly. Because you can handle the pain. It awakens in others to be rejected for example or

  Mm, yes. How you yourself will have to deal with the pain of being rejected, because if there's one thing we can be 100% sure of, it's that our children will experience it just as we have experienced it and will experience it again m

  right?

  It's actually the one with how can you feel rejected without it hitting you like an existential pain

  Not because it's not as a soul that you are rejected.

  If you can feel you can find a connection anyway and stand in it and feel the love inside your own system anyway.

  Exactly. Exactly.

  We're shutting down for this time. Hi, guys.

  Thank you for listening. Hi, everybody.