Podcast E33: Blended Families and Children

Relationships and Family
Written By Mette Miriam Sloth

Podcast E33 focuses on the importance of parents processing their own tension and trauma to create a healthy and safe environment for their children. The hosts, Martine Skov and Mette Miriam Sloth, discuss how parents' emotional states affect children and how to work on oneself to improve family dynamics.

  • Parents' Tension Affects Children:

    The podcast emphasizes that children are sensitive to their parents' emotional states. Even if parents try to hide their tension, children can still sense it. This tension can manifest as anger, frustration, or anxiety in parents, and it can negatively impact children's well-being. Children may react to parental tension by becoming insecure, angry, or by developing unhealthy behavior patterns.

    Divorce and Children's Well-being:

    E33 also discusses how divorce affects children. Regardless of how parents choose to handle a divorce, there will always be emotional consequences for the children. The most important factor is how parents manage their own emotions and communicate with their children. The podcast encourages openness and honesty in communicating with children about the divorce and emphasizes the importance of treating children with respect and understanding. It can also be beneficial to involve children in the decision-making process where appropriate.

    Stepchildren and Family Dynamics:

    The podcast also touches on the complexities of families with stepchildren. There are many factors at play, and it is important to be aware of the challenges and opportunities that arise in these families. Balancing the needs of both one's own children and stepchildren can be challenging, and it requires openness, honesty, and a willingness to communicate effectively.

    Clearing Up One's Own Tension:

    E33 emphasizes that the best thing parents can do for their children is to work on their own tension. This may involve various approaches such as therapy, energy work, mindfulness, or other forms of self-development. By processing their own traumas and unresolved emotions, parents can create a more harmonious and loving environment for their children. The podcast also highlights that being a role model for one's children and showing them how to handle difficult emotions is more important than trying to protect them from all of life's challenges. Having a good relationship with oneself, setting healthy boundaries, and managing difficult emotions constructively are essential elements in creating a healthy family life.

    Children's Resilience:

    The podcast emphasizes the importance of children learning to cope with life's challenges. Instead of trying to shield children from adversity, parents should support them in developing robustness and resilience. By learning to handle difficult emotions and situations, children will be better equipped to navigate life's ups and downs.

  • Translated transcript of the original Danish podcast

    Hosts: Martine Skov & Mette Miriam Sloth

    This podcast is for those of you who are living or are about to enter a shared family. Here you can hear others talk about what's difficult and problematic, but you can also hear about how they find a way forward. My name is Martine Skov and I'm a psychologist and couples therapist. Welcome to the podcast Sharing family dilemmas. Metteiam slot is a part-time mum, and she has a master's degree in psychology. And together with her new husband, she has founded the company Magdalene, where she counsels people in crisis based on her special knowledge of relationships and emotion regulation. In this episode, you can hear about how it plays out in her family. You can also hear about Mette's personal experiences with the emotions associated with divorce.

    It would be great if you could introduce yourself

    just briefly before we get started.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, um, my name is Mette. Mam Slot. I used to be called Karendi, which I mention because I've published books in it. I was hopelessly in love with my first real husband. It didn't last. That's the way it is. So that's why I can no longer fuck the name. So I got married again. So now my name is Slots uh and I have the company Model Leneeffekten together with Sune my husband and have a son Oliver aged 12 and a lovely bonus boy aged 10. And how do you share them or where?

    Yes, we are seven seven. Erm,

    both

    both Yes, both kids. Seven seven. And it actually works really really well. And um, in the beginning we actually did it so that right now we have both children are both children have the same arrangement, so they are there together seven seven, right? I

    the same round.

    Yes, in the same round. But the first nine months, when I moved in, I was with Sune for a year before we moved in together. Erm, when I moved in with Oliver, we made it so that the two children only had weekends together, so they were staggered. Because we think like, well that was the whole thing, we didn't know if they would give each other. So that's kind of the thing, because you've chosen another partner, the children are kind of forced into it.

    Yes, they are. They kind of get a whole new constellation pulled down on them, right?

    Exactly. And I was a bit like that, I lived in Lejre and then moved to Valsø. I was actually with my husband when my husband and I, my last husband, my Oliver's father and I split up. We actually lived together for a number of years after the break-up, when we split up the flat. Um, because we weren't really, we were kind of phew, we didn't really feel like sharing, that our son should be divided between us before time was, before it was like this now. Now it's absolutely necessary, now there's another partner in, or now we have to, or what has to happen, right?

    OK, OK, OK.

    So, you could say that all constellations have their challenges, so it worked for a while, so it was all hats and glasses, but that's how it is. You go through all the phases, right? But it certainly meant that Olli got a little older before we moved apart, and he had to have two homes, right?

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. How old was he?

    He was he was when he was just he was 10, 10 and a half when we moved apart.

    Yes, he was. Yes, he was.

    And how long had you lived together? Well, we split up shortly after he turned eight.

    Yes, that's right.

    And then we had lived together a bit split up and my ex-husband had a girlfriend in Aarhus and he was away every other weekend. And I was also away every other week when I was up at Zoom. But then we'd come home and we'd spend some time together, or we'd split up the apartment, right? And in many ways it worked. What didn't work was that, and I was totally naive about this, was that when we finally moved, so many of the things that you find yourself in, that the family actually breaks down, because it was. We weren't intimate or anything, but there's something about moving apart. So when that happens, that break-up happens, there were some delayed reactions that I thought we had been through. Some emotional layers that I could see that my ex-husband didn't have. Or at least that's my interpretation of it, right?

    OK, OK, OK. So that's when something came to him.

    Yes, yes, yes.

    In that context.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was actually

    when you physically moved apart.

    Exactly. And I was completely naive, because I thought, well, you know, we are, it's over, right? Erm. And it was, but I think the thing about it being very physical is that now the family has broken up, and there's no support there. Someone doesn't come home once in a while, just a good friend you can chat to or something, right? Erm, so there were some

    No, then you're kind of on your own.

    Yes, you are.

    As an adult, right?

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    Then you're really on your own, right?

    Yes, that's right.

    And standing alone. Er, with a child too, right?

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    Um, and I think I was more prepared for that mentally, or I was, than he was. So and it took me by surprise, so we took a trip in the manesia of explosions, and it's landed now. But looking back, I can see that I don't think I was so naive as to think that the way we did it and by dragging it out, we avoided some of the difficult things you have to go through. We didn't do that at all. You know, it made me smarter, right? Well, so um...

    No, and it's interesting because it wasn't actually about new partners coming into the picture, because that was there while you were living together, right?

    That's what it was.

    So it was about something else.

    Yes, it was about something else. I think it was more about the fact that we had been we had also been an anchored team in many ways. So we had uh you know had been connected in many ways uh had helped each other in many ways uh and there wasn't much family to lean on either so I think there was some delay on something there

    which, um, which definitely took me by surprise as well

    and which has strengthened us in the long run, right. But I think I just got a taste of all those situations where you end up in a situation with a person you feel you know well, and then you end up in a very, very difficult place where you never thought you'd end up, right? That you're thrust into some kind of physical unravelling that is hugely emotional, and I thought, well, we've been through that or something. I was very surprised by that.

    Mm.

    Um. So, but it landed. Um. And I can also see, I don't know if there's a difference between a man having to consider that another man should take care of his son. And you know, I also had to go through some feelings with a woman taking care of my own boy and stuff like that, right? Yes, yes, yes.

    So there were a lot of emotional layers in it that came up, which kind of threw me for a loop, I have to say,

    in relation to how it developed. But it's kind of funny. It was difficult for me personally, but as a professional, it's enormously exciting what's going on in these constellations. I mean, what the hell is it pushing up?

    Mm.

    Um. Because basically, we want to realise the hypothesis that the more good adults there are for children, the better, right? But it also requires us adults to be able to handle all the more difficult things around there. There can be a lot of tricky things, right? And what we carry with us

    Mm.

    So for generations and stuff like that, right?

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    So it was a very educational period, I would say.

    Yes, it was.

    So I've become very humble in relation to the fact that however you choose to go through a divorce, and you you know split everything up right away or live together a bit or alternate a bit or whatever the hell you do. So it's really up to the individual family to figure out what the hell they do, and all forms have their own sort of pluses and potential minuses that can explode a little bit with delay or first, right?

    Yes, but it's true, as you say, that you could have the idea that if we drag it out or in that way make it as gentle as possible also for the kids to stay

    in the same house or something, then, uh

    there are some things you don't get hit by.

    Yes, there are. And there aren't.

    No, there aren't.

    No, I found that out, anyway.

    No, I didn't. And that's also one of the things we're going to talk about today, I think, right? Something about what there is, what there is learning in it, or what it is that you've realised in a purely professional way in relation to what it awakens in us, right?

    Mm.

    Erm, because I think it's some kind of primal force in some way, right?

    Yes, that's it,

    that comes into play.

    Very, very much.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, that's right. And then you also say that you've come out of it stronger. Of course I will be too.

    Yes, of course.

    interested in, right? To hear more about it.

    Yes, yes, we definitely are. Yes, we are. And I can see that the dynamics that I had with my ex-husband and that I actually maintained, that's what I was naive about, that was maintained in us staying together. Because I think when we met each other, we were in our mid-20s or something, right? I was a completely different person then, and so was he. He was living in the US at the time. Ø And then he came home, and I think I can look back and see all the good things we had, and what we had as, where we were bound together in unity, it was definitely some kind of dependency dynamics. Um, and at times it's like him taking care of me a little bit, that I was such a wounded animal who had to figure it out. And over time, I think it turns into me getting a lot of things under control, and he has a bit of a hard time with me taking care of him. And I don't really notice that as much. So I've overcompensated in the relationship, and I think what's happening is that I don't realise it either, because we're actually bonding, and I think it's primarily for my son. And it was, but there was still something about the things that I think the dependency dynamic is simply unwound, first becomes visible and explodes, and it can therefore only be unwound when I actually meet a new partner, I move, even though he knew it would happen, he had met the other person and stuff, so it actually comes up there.

    Does he meet someone before?

    He meets someone first. Yes, he does.

    Erm.

    And you could say that I've also worked a lot with what I call the regulation cycle when I started harmonious kids and since then I've been working with human emotions. Basically, going in and feeling when you're being tricked. And I've geeked out a lot on that. So when I realise, I can sense that he's going on a date, and I can feel that I need to go for a walk. I have to feel all the layers like, what's coming up? And there's this fear that there's this fear of being alone. There's fear that my son prefers her, you know, all sorts of things come up that aren't rational, but emotions have nothing to do with rationality, you know. And I'm like, well, I have to take care of this. It's down here. Some of it is not mine either. Some of it is inherited, some of everything. So I go for a walk, and I chew my way through those conditions. Um, and I get them back, because I'm pretty good at it. It's not perfect. Nobody is, but it's my speciality, you know. And it actually allows me to come back and say like, I think you should go on a date. He's kind of like, well, that's nice, you know. So what I get into it is that this is how he wants to handle it, because he's also, well, he also wants a good co-operation. But when I meet Sune, it's incredibly difficult for him that a man has to take care of his son, right? And I think he's so affected that I feel that he doesn't take responsibility. And then I'm furious, because I'm kind of like, I fucking took responsibility when you met someone, right? So I thought he behaved childishly.

    Yes, he was. How is it that you have to take responsibility?

    Well, the thing about taking responsibility is that if you have a feeling about something that's difficult, you have a tendency to push it out and say now you've made me angry because you've found someone else or now you know you can't afford it or there can be all sorts of ways to do it and we all come to that, including myself, it's just a really good idea to bring it home because if you produce them out it gives you relief on the inside but you just don't land these states that are counterproductive and painful and which are anxious in you. Because basically, we have to be able to deal with anxiety. It's deeply uncomfortable. And I would say in the world we live in right now, where it's fortunately no longer taboo to get divorced, which is wonderful, it doesn't mean that it's easy, because you have split families and new partners and stuff, and there are new in-laws, you still have something to do with the old one maybe, and whatever, right? So there are a lot of dynamics that are difficult, so the complexity increases, but the more complex it gets, the more you're actually called to practice taking care of your inner life, because otherwise you're really going to create a lot of conflict with a lot of people, and that stresses you out enormously, or you adapt because you're afraid that people don't like you, or you know that fear of conflict, right? And then you get drained and you walk around like a zombie. So like the two things that can happen, right?

    Mm.

    So this thing about taking responsibility for your feelings and keeping the tension, keeping the intensity of feeling, you can easily feel betrayed when your ex-partner finds someone new. Even though they are deeply in maybe you yourself have gone for the relationship. But nevertheless, some remnants of some feelings may well come up and the more you dare to let them come up, breathe in them and recognise that they are there. You can be embarrassed by them. You can be ashamed of them. You may not want them to be there. You may not want to look at them because you think I'm done with that relationship so I don't want to look at them because I feel something. You know, I may not want him, but others can't have him either. There's a kind of sense of ownership, right? Exactly.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yes. So you think, it's not allowed if I've left myself.

    Yes, that's right. You're not allowed to do that.

    No, you can't.

    But if you dare to be with it, to be curious, just interesting. Now I just try to close my eyes and feel what comes up. You know, there can be God, there's almost hatred, you know, what the hell is going on? Well, if you dare to sit with it, because what you can do here is, or what you do, you're actually going to help humanity heal something. All the shit that we haven't been able to figure out for thousands of years. There are so many repressed emotions. That there hasn't been room to do anything about, so they can come up in your psyche. It may also be that it was once yours, but it presents itself as your own. It can run in the family line too, right?

    Yeah, yeah. Where it's somehow programmed into our cells or DNA, right?

    Yeah, exactly.

    So it feels like it's something that's just our own.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    But that's where you have this look at the epigenetic stuff, right?

    Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It tastes when it's, it tastes a little different when it's like a roar through the candy line. Well, it's like the intensity of what you feel is very, very intense. Um, and you can recognise a bit of it, but typically when it's, when you can, when you feel it something in the family line, you'll be like, it's weird, I suddenly feel super jealous right now. It's not in me. Well, it's because not all themes you've inherited your genetics, so to speak, that you've struggled with so much personally. You may well recognise them. It may also be that you've worked through it a lot and you're like, why is this coming up now? So there's something very beautiful in that, if you dare to welcome it. It emerges from the depths. And it appears when you're pressurised on the outside. And you do that in a divorce. And you do it again when you find a new partner. And you do it again when you have to live with a new partner who has things in relation to your child for example, right?

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really something.

    It's a whole different league.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    I mean, are you insane?

    Yeah, I'm insane. You're not?

    There's a reason.

    It can trick more than that, when because I think even in a nuclear family you can also like

    think you can be tricked by the child's father in some way or mum doing something you can't stand inside. But as soon as it's an adult who doesn't share

    who doesn't have the same lineage or genes as your own child, then something happens. Isn't that right?

    Well, I remember when I was getting sung I was talking about moving in together. I was so scared. I was 100. I was just like, well, of course I've also counselled a lot of families and part families as well. So I've seen and I know the statistics, I know the theory. So I know it with coloured glasses, but I've also seen families, and I've just seen that this idyllic idea that more wonderful, resourceful adults for these children will always be a strength. I've just seen families get torn apart to atoms when they moved in together because the children reacted and they couldn't handle it, and maybe they chose themselves, and now we're going to have a love child, because we're also going to be forged even deeper together. So very quickly there's a little new one inside. Are you crazy, it can explode in your head in ways you never, ever anticipated because these dynamics. It's relatively new that we're in this situation of getting married again. Maybe you have one, two, three, four marriages in a lifetime and maybe children with many of them or across the board. The fact that it's not tabooised, it's been taken away really well. But there's also a complexity to it.

    Yes, there is.

    So we're not used to it. We don't have, we don't have any role models.

    We're also kind of against our herd or our kind of species uh, I don't know, behaviour in some way, right? Merging families or taking over children from strangers.

    m

    clans.

    Yes, that's it.

    Well, there is, if we look at our instincts in it,

    I saw an episode on National Geographics in relation to clips about wildlife that they had cut out, because we're not just instincts, but we're also mammals, right? Well, we have that too. And the style they had cut out was what happens when a male lion has taken over another younger lion, he's chased an older alpha male away and he's kind of won the territory. The first thing he does is he kills all the cubs. He kills all the babies. And you see that, and it's not there when the kids are watching it.

    But they simply bite, and the dogs don't do anything. It's just accepted. Now there's a new hand. It's not Yes, there shouldn't be and when we look back through history, what has happened to kings, and then someone got off the throne, and then the son, well it's children who are slaughtered.

    This is in our psyche. It's in us like a shadow. It's not because parents or new partners go out and kill children. That's not what I'm saying.

    Yes, I think there's a purpose here. I mean, it doesn't really matter why he does it, does it?

    No, that's no, exactly. It's something about my genetics being passed on and you know you're a risk, you're a potential risk in terms of the line of succession. So and stuff like that, right?

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or you could commit mutiny, right?

    Exactly. Yeah, that's right.

    So you just have to be aware that you might look at it and say: ‘Well, we humans aren't like that, but we have everything in us as humans. All the brutal things that are also in other mammals are also in us. And that's also there if you look at Hansel and Gretel and fairy tales and stuff like that, right? The evil stepmother and stuff like that. I would really encourage you to notice when these pages come out. I mean, sometimes there can be a kind of almost a kind of weird rage or a you can feel someone here also heard several people mention such a weird one, if your partner, your new partner kind of says: ‘Well, my son or my daughter just needs me today, so we'll do something on our own, and you're just like, of course, I can understand that you just want to slaughter that child. So welcome it. Not because you slaughter the child, but you simply have to invite this into you, because it's in you. So it's another thing, you will be part of a shared family with bonus children, so first your few children will throw you into feelings you didn't realise you had, and then you'll have shared children, bonus children, and that will again push you into feelings and states you didn't realise you had. And there's a lot of power in that. So the more you dare to face it, breathe through it, shed light on what you know, barely integrate it, the better bonus parents you will become. But you have to dare to face it. What are some of the things that you think can get in the way of enjoying it or daring to kind of

    stand in it or be in it?

    Well, I think there are several things. There's the fact that we as a species, as humanity, there's something about where we are as a species, as humanity right now, right? We're a relatively young species. If you look at the fact that we've been, I don't know, 50,000 years ago as Homoy Sabiens, right? And if we look at the collective consciousness, we shit in our own nest, there's plastic in the oceans, you know, Trump might get elected again. So the collective consciousness, let's just say, is perhaps a preteam. Let's just say that there might be potential for us to gain a little more awareness. We just have to recognise that. There are a lot of things we haven't solved yet. We're a bit rubbery, so we still have a lot to learn. We have more potential in terms of living more consciously and living. We also have potential to live in unconditional love. The majority of the way we have is conditional love still. So we have a beautiful, beautiful potential that we can endeavour to ensure that our great-grandchildren or something like that might live much more than we do, depending on how much we get our finger out, right? So there's that aspect of course, right? So if we look at how children have been met over time, then right now in the place we live in Denmark, where we have the appreciative pedagogy, I've been reading up on history, and it has been difficult to find anything in relation to how children were met. But the guy called Lord de Maus or Lord de Mus, I don't really know how to pronounce it, has written about it. And it's simply a horror story. I mean, it's horrible. They have been slaughtered and murdered and sold into prostitution and sexually abused and beaten and tortured and executed. And then to the idea that we meet children, we try to meet children lovingly and control ourselves, that's quite new. It's relatively new. And that's within the last 50 to 100 years, right? So we still have a lot of darkness in us that comes up. Children's parents are also typically very scared for themselves the first time they feel the impulse to actually almost want to throw the child out of the window and not hit them.

    so it comes up

    because it has happened it has happened many times unfortunately not

    yes, you can say 100 years out of 50 and not very much either

    it's very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very little it's very very very little so we haven't had time to recode all these nerves in the nervous system in relation to how we deal with pressure and stress

    can regulate

    Exactly so this thing about regulating and becoming self-regulating is what we basically have either we have such suppress, i.e. to be dissociated just pressed down by can feel something in order to survive in war and plague and whatnot. And then we have come to the point where in order to try to relieve the inner tension or inner pain, inner discomfort, we either direct it inwards in self-blame. Of course, it doesn't relieve anything, but we take something on ourselves, or we take it out on others. In other words, we project it outwards and hurt others. Or we numb it. Exactly.

    And a good way to soothe it is actually to sit and share. Some forms of therapy, sharing can heal, but it can also just soothe. So you can be in a situation where you sit and soothe all the time, but retraumatise yourself and others by sitting and listening to suffering, right? So we've come to the point where, how the hell, what do we do when words are no longer enough, when words can't heal, it can relieve, and we can kind of share the pain dog shit out on some more people. So that's the next step as a human being. It's actually that we need to be able to regulate it, we need to be able to land it, we need to be able to raise it to a higher frequency. And that's the potential we're facing now. And it's relatively new that we're just doing with it. We've tried meditation and all sorts of other things, but some of those forms you're going to bypass because you're scared shitless of your own darkness. So you constantly want to go up in frequency, but you don't want to go down and tinker. So that

    what is it that we get scared of there?

    Well, for example, if you suddenly find yourself thinking no, that's wonderful, now I have a lovely bonus child and you suddenly feel hatred. You feel as if the fact that your bonus child doesn't really like you makes you feel, let's say, hatred. Let's say you feel such a violent feeling towards the child that you haven't even felt towards your own child and you want to favour them. You want to behave like a child. You want to ostracise your partner, you want to somehow make your partner feel guilty or make him or her do something about that child. And part of you can see the child reacting just like a child should. The child just wants to be with their partner and doesn't want to be with you. That's fine. That's the way it should be. But there are parts of you that simply can't handle it. So what do you do? Well, you can try to meditate your way out of it, but it doesn't go away. You can eventually get away from it. But it's still down in the primordial soup. And it's not necessarily yours yet. So you actually have to let yourself fall into it. You actually have to practise when these ugly sides emerge in your mind. Three, to welcome them. Trips to let them play out in you, but without you enacting them. And if and when you do enact them and you can see yourself from the outside that right now I'm trying to get my partner to take something on and make something go away like that or get the right child to adjust. But it actually feels wrong. It's because I can't handle it, I can't cope. So you have to cringe when you land. So you have to resist the impulse to keep doing something wrong because you can't stand it, because you feel rejected, or because you feel unloved, or because you don't feel favoured, or because you feel that the child is taking something from you. Because you will experience these things. You will experience it in a different way. You feel that it adds a deeper complexity. You may also want to favour your own child over the other. You have to resist the impulse to do so. It can come up in all sorts of little things in everyday life. So I would really encourage you to be curious about it. And it's hard to be guilty or to be shameful. And there can be all kinds of things, but the more curious you can be about it, the more you can see it as a long evolution that's playing out in you. And it's not necessarily so much about who you are as a person. You're not a bad person because this is happening. They happen to everyone. None of us are missing out here as you are at all.

    It's all about how you deal with it.

    It's not. And it doesn't matter how many books you've read about it or prepared yourself for it. It can't be done

    Yes. There's still some kind of emotional hormonal or something that you get completely

    flooded with.

    Yes, it takes over you.

    Yes, it takes you over,

    there may also be something in the child's behaviour, in the bonus children's behaviour, because the child has behaviour in stages, and it may be the way she acts when she cries or the way she acts when she, you know, freaks out or whatever it may be, that gets under your skin, where you can handle it better with your own. Of course, it could also be that you might have a better relationship with your bonus children and versus your own child. Let's say the attachment was had it had it had it was already under pressure. It could also be that you didn't have children and will take these bonus children very closely under your wing and hope that they can become the children you never had. There are so many variants here.

    Yes, there are.

    Depending on your situation and your constitution, what you have with you. So my best advice is to be curious about it.

    Mm.

    So go from being afraid of it to being curious about it and being like ah

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. And when we become afraid of it, is it because we think that if we just let it come, at least I think I talk to a lot of people who say that: ‘Well, but then I'm afraid it just can't stop it, and then it just comes rushing in and takes me over, right?

    M. Yes, yes, yes. And of course there's a real fear in that, because if you open your mouth and let it come out, it can come out very violently. And there is, I remember when I met my bonus son, and I was a bit of a f***, I can't get on the wrong side of him until you know there's a connection, because when he first meets him, he's just so smart. So once he's decided that he can't use you for anything, and he just thinks you're arse, he'll shut you down. So he's just like, you can forget about that. I'm just like, f***,

    I can't do that. Because if I end up there, he's so sweet and so open, but he's also got that thing where, once he's made up his mind, you can't bribe him, you can't, he's a cool little guy. I was just like, s***,

    you got to the exam there.

    I was just like f***, f***. And I was just, I had, we had talked, she had talked about, should we just, should we live separately? Is that what we should do until these kids get older? I mean, do we dare to go through this? I mean, can we, in the sense that it's not, it's not the children's fault, they're the way they should be, but it's also the two of us adults who have to be able to f****** handle it. So whatever arises, we have to be able to handle it. We have to be able to land it. Because if we can't handle it, I had experienced what it does to my own son. My ex-husband and I, we didn't laugh out loud, but our things we couldn't do were in the field, and I could see how my son reacted, but he could feel it. He could just feel it. Um, and it wore us out in the end, and

    so it was like a mood or like

    Yeah, like a mood. So, you know, we had some places where our differences really made it really hard for us to be together in the end. Um, so even though it wasn't open bickering, because we didn't do that, there was still less of a desire to be together. There was less desire to reach out. There was less desire to touch. There was a more, you know, more monotonous tone of voice. There I was, I knew it. I could see he was reacting to it.

    M. Mm.

    And I kind of had this thing about creating an atmosphere where we make sure to regulate it so that they can slip out or slide in or Yes. Because otherwise it won't be alive anymore, right?

    Yes, it won't. No, because it won't come alive. It won't come alive at all. And the problem is that my ex-husband felt it too, but his attempt to solve it was that we should spend more time together, but I was done. So I was just like, I just wanted to get away, you know. So we created a kind of push-pull dynamic that tore us apart. So it was mostly it was so it was clearly the right thing that we parted ways and at that point I was friends and we've become friends again, not fortunately

    was it your decision or

    it was really ours it was really both our decision I think it was just me who kind of set the height

    mm

    so where I think he was like a little puha we can't offer that to our son so he himself is not a child of divorce and I was just like that I know but we have to we can't offer him this either

    No

    and he actually agreed with that so in that way we were together but

    but we kind of pushed it through, if you like, where he was kind of like p we had to just do it for his sake and just kind of like that we can't.

    Yes, we can't. Yes, we can't.

    Because he grows up in a family where we're friends, but there's no love.

    So I can't offer him that.

    It's interesting how, as you say, we can't offer our son to become this. And I think sometimes it's like we know what we have, we don't know what we're getting, right? Yeah, we don't know what we're getting, right?

    So even though this might not be

    cool, we have a hard time imagining how it could be different, right? In a new constellation.

    Yes, we can. Yes, I could. And I did too, because when I got a voice like that in, like that s*** between you. So I got this voice, like one day when I was meditating, and I was like phew, and I think two years passed from when I knew it was s*** until I dared to do something about it, because I was like, phew, we're doing well, and we have the same value, and you know, we laugh together, and you know, I was like, I couldn't be a child of divorce, and won't it just get worse, you know,

    it was very much out of consideration for Oliver, you know, that you somehow

    Yes, that's what it was.

    wondered what it would do to him. Or...

    well, it was very much him, but of course it was also myself. It was also myself who was terrified of being alone and can I face life on my own and what if I don't find someone again? What if

    there's also that addiction?

    Exactly. Yeah, definitely. What if I don't find someone? What if it gets worse? What if he suddenly finds someone and has a great time with her? Will I be left feeling like, you know, I've got to suck it up? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, I will. I have to thick also a lot of people who don't say

    all those. Exactly.

    Yes, that's right.

    Until I was like, no, that's not possible. So we'll have to eat it, then I'll have to eat it. If I regret it, then I have to eat it. That's just the way it is. So I'll just have to take some risks, right? So what I talked to Sun about it was kind of like I don't know if I dare to do this or I only dare to do this if I only dare to do this if we can land if we can land things every time it it it it arises both between us but also between us when something comes between us in relation to the children because then I can't bear to be in it erm it would simply be it would it would it it it it it it it it I can't. And we did that too, because he also had a huge, erm, he's just as much of a geek about landing things as I did. So we did it between us.

    And what does it mean to land? To

    landing really means that you're not in doubt when you're the trick. You're not in doubt when there's something with your partner. You're pulling. You don't want to touch him or her. You're either in denial, or it's just like, you know, there's nothing wrong. Or you know perfectly well when there's something that's bothering you. Um. Or you've had a big argument or a disagreement and it hasn't landed, and you walk around like a thundercloud, and you also know when the other parent is the trick in relation to your child or is the trick in relation to your own child, where you might handle it in a way that you can't really stand within. So you either don't take responsibility for the child's behaviour and do something about it or else you take responsibility in a way where you're completely misunderstanding the situation. You're making it worse now, right? So it was kind of okay, this is just an extra layer into the mix, because meeting a new partner and having to sort of figure it out. There's plenty to deal with, right?

    Yes, there is.

    That pops up.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    So, and we had those we had like six six days every two weeks, right? Where we were like, okay, we have to push through as much as we possibly can and put ourselves through as much as we possibly can to get that land to be stronger when the kids come on, because we can't expect them to land it and we don't know if they want each other.

    So we rehearsed every time that it was really, really hard. How do we get back again? And how does it feel to have landed? I mean, just to keep going. How does it feel when things have landed and you can't always talk out of it. So we also we use meditation we use many ways and that and also we do workshops and help people with that um so now here it is three years later not

    but basically to land in a way where the body feels open and you feel safe in the relationship again. You feel like, okay, that was really hard.

    Yes, it's not so much reconciliation, it's actually more on the emotional security level.

    Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Because I think everyone knows what it's like to have a quarrel or a disagreement and you can't settle it. You just walk around, and then all of a sudden everyday life sets in, you know. So then it kind of slips into the background. But you've just taken a small step backwards. A distance between you energetically, if you like, or emotionally. You're a little more closed off. You're a little more wary. You're kind of entrenching yourself a little bit, because you've kind of, because you think the person got a little bit up, right?

    Exactly. And you haven't landed there.

    Because when you've got a little bit up, then the next time, well, every time this happens, you get more and more up, and then it starts to get harder and harder and harder and harder and harder and harder. So we looked another deep and then we said, well, no matter what, every time we experience this, we have to have the other one, or we can't stand it. So that's the deepest commitment we've ever made to each other. Um, and therefore there have been situations where it's been f****** difficult. I mean, are you crazy, but we've taken it on and we've kept going, and it was also because he had some things in relation to my son where I kept saying, you're reading him wrong, you're interpreting him wrong. I know you're interpreting him wrong. And conversely, I also had some places where he actually saw my son more clearly than I did, where he was a bit like that, you know. But then that layer also came in, but we were getting so used to standing there and going on and on and on and on and on and on.

    But what is it that you keep doing?

    Well, what we kept doing was basically because you can't keep talking.

    No, you can't,

    it doesn't help a damn thing.

    And you can do it.

    I can, yeah, but that's when you're there, right? Actually, if I get overwhelmed, I shut down. Not gonna say anything. Um... But for what we did, and I would actually say that Suna was actually a little better at it. It was actually that he says like this: ‘Okay, right now we're in the red, and we've turned it around mentally, but we're still thinking about whether we should just split up and shut down this project or you know, catch something.

    Yeah, that's the thing. Because that's where it takes you, right?

    Well, it is.

    Yeah, it is, yeah.

    And then it's actually about us, you know, going into the sofa and laying down and then we're actually together. And it's that thing where we look into each other's eyes that's a bit hand on heart. We go in and feel this. So whoever is most overwhelmed

    in a situation is probably the hardest when both are equally overwhelmed.

    Sometimes it's something like saying okay, we'll just go our separate ways. Just go and think about it, just come down a little bit, take care of what we can and then sometimes it's like okay I can see where you're coming from, you know, we'll land it somehow not But otherwise the one who is the least tricky helps the other to say and just give their field of love to say okay try you're triggered right now and then when the other has known I'm pissed it's me who is triggered right now not that's the biggest hurdle and then actually giving the other permission to witness you because then you can go in and say okay what is it that triggers me and then the other listens unconditionally it can be like that for me it was a bit like that you know there was a fear that he misunderstood my son I was a bit like that if you misinterpret him then this track runs you don't see the beauty he has you don't see his depth you don't know but there he was in a place where he could receive it and then it landed and then it actually started every time we got the landing. It wasn't just mental. It was so that, you know, you could say the bodies opened up again.

    M. Mm.

    Then I experienced that he saw my son differently. And I actually also experienced if I had some in relation to I don't think there are some areas here where you don't see your own son that if he took it to heart and landed in it, his behaviour started to change. I mean when he could use it and vice versa because it's not like I'm some kind of oracle or something. He's also saved my arse many times when I've claimed something and been very assertive and where he's like, that's not what's happening. Not so yeah. So that's the thing about being able to use each other's feedback.

    And it's actually also exciting when you have a parent who isn't your own child's parent inside, because they somehow have a different perspective.

    Yes, they do.

    Er, which is much more like, what can you say wrong to say clean, but it's at least kind of cleansed of some things, right? Yes, it is.

    Well, you can, it can actually be very useful.

    Especially in situations I've experienced myself, when

    if I've been worried or worried about my children, right?

    Mm.

    Then he has been able to step in

    like with a completely different calmness and a completely different way of seeing things clearly, so it comes down to earth a bit. That is, if you're ready for it, right? Because I could also just as easily

    uh go the way that I started accusing him of not taking the situation seriously, right?

    Now you're just backtracking, because it's not your children or anything, right?

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly, exactly.

    So, you can really quickly go off on a time track, right?

    M. Yes, you can.

    Yes, you can. And it's actually the one where you actually have to stop. And stop in relation to doing the other and stuff like that. You don't understand me, and you don't understand how hard it is and everything like that. And just thinking about, okay, the other person might have a point here, right?

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    So you actually have to make a little pause in your impulse to turn it outwards. It's very strong.

    It's incredibly strong.

    It's incredibly strong. To put something in the other person's shoe, right?

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, it is.

    And I find that if you start to hold your tongue a bit too much and breathe into it, it's as if you'll still sometimes get so hit that you'll do it, but it's as if it gets smaller. It's as if you're opening up some other muscles that are down in the human mind and body,

    that are actually just waiting to be used. In other words, more complex, more mature, more far more appropriate ways

    to deal with this.

    And that's because emotions tend to run away with us, but it is possible to use the intensity of the emotions to use them as a force behind the decisions that are made, but only with an awareness of it.

    It's a bit like having to tame some kind of wild animal or something, right?

    Yes, it is.

    So I can make a lion do tricks all of a sudden, right?

    Exactly. But I've noticed, now I've read your one book conversations with my imaginary daughter, right? And one of the things I'm noticing is that you often mention this thing about breathing through

    m Yes.

    A feeling.

    Mm.

    Um, can you try to say a bit more about that?

    Well, there's something about what happens when we're overwhelmed by emotional intensity in the nervous system, that it's like either we shut it off so we don't feel it, collapse, I would say, dissociate, um, that can also happen. Or we throw it at someone, right? Then it's like we try to regulate it by moulding it into words and throwing it at someone, right? So that means that if you fail to do both, and of course sometimes you can get addicted to what you have with you and stuff like that, right? So sometimes you can't, you can't not dissociate if it's there because of a trauma, right? But if you work with yourself, you actually start to realise that you can handle more and more tension. It also gives you better orgasms, so there's a carrot in that.

    Yes.

    Yes, it does. Because it's tension that you're holding in your system, so instead of the system being accustomed to contracting around painful frequencies for many thousands of years, right? About what hurts and what feels violent.

    That's been part of keeping it down?

    Yes, that's been part of it.

    So having to encapsulate it in some way.

    Exactly. It's simply been a survival mechanism,

    which has become kind of muscular actually, right?

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. You could say that when you've had a violent power hierarchy, both adults versus children, but also sheriffs and farmers and things like that. So you've actually, if you've reacted, you've only lost your life. So you've learnt to keep something inside in fear of punishment. Very physical punishment. So it's been necessary. It has been absolutely necessary. And there are also times when you've felt something and you're being chased by something, it's not appropriate to feel it. So there's a lot of survival mechanisms in that and encapsulating intensity rather than reacting to it.

    M. Yes, that makes sense.

    And sometimes it also makes sense, of course, to take intensity and throw it at someone to try to push them away. So it does have some functions. We just don't live in a place where there's a mountain lion trying to eat you, or you know, there's some shit that's going to string you up or something, right? So right now we want to try to use that intensity differently, because it creates so much conflict when we just throw it at each other. I mean, it just creates a mess.

    Mm.

    So this thing about when you feel something of intensity, it's rarely very appropriate to mould it into words and throw it at someone when you're overwhelmed. It's hard to stop it. But if you can start to close your eyes and look inwards and try to connect with, what is it? So the first step is actually figuring out what And what is it that you're feeling? There you go, there you go. What is it really? Well, it's a, what the hell is it? It's something uncomfortable. It hurts, or my stomach contracts, or my, my throat tightens, I feel like crying. Then you realise, how is it a body ring? And then over time, you can start saying like this, then you start saying, well, there's something that's angry or I'm sad. Then you start like that, and then you start, well, then you start to get really sad. I mean, you get really cool. It's just like, uh, there's a little bit, there's a little powerlessness. And now, there's this, uh, contempt underneath, you know, you start to

    feel,

    differentiate different

    And then when you can be with them and you find that sometimes you actually get some images. You actually get some sensations of why it's there. It could be that you, let's say in a situation where you've been tricked by a child and it could be your bonus child and then your partner, you feel rejected, let's say, and you go in and feel it, so there's sadness and then there's anger and there's rage and then you might get an image of some situation from childhood where you felt rejected. It's as if the system or the body or the psyche is giving you some input and you're like, ‘That's it, that's it. That's when there was this little lump of energy that was put in somewhere because I didn't know what to do with it and there was no one who could help me with it. I couldn't say it out loud and I couldn't ask for help or

    people weren't able to help me.

    It's like you're kind of unpacking these lunchboxes that, you know, they've kind of become a bit smelly and mouldy, right? Because

    delicious mackerel has been lying around. Exactly. So that's a huge relief. And what I can see when I work with people is that they can often feel it, and they actually feel it very often in the places where some systems are chakra systems. So it was solar plexus, very neck.

    Yeah, yeah.

    A lot of heart.

    It's as if they can feel these. It's as if they've placed some

    limitations in what we can call the energy system. And you can say that it's not - it's not really - it's not particularly strange because if everything is vibrations and there's a huge amount of intensity in emotions and if it gets locked up, then it's you.

    Mm.

    So getting it going again can feel enormously liberating and get something released. And what I find is that it makes it easier to handle similar situations until the last ones don't trigger you. And then just like, well, but that would normally have made me feel rejected. It doesn't do that anymore.

    In that way, it's like having to get used to some kind of uh

    er, spider, tarantula, right? Which you somehow learn to kind of stand next to and age or something and be at peace with it.

    M. Exactly. Exactly.

    So you really just turn to something that you've associated with something unpleasant, or you default or compulsively shut down. You clench down on it. If

    you actually start waiting to open up.

    That's what you're doing. Because it sounds like it's both the body that helps to keep it in, to have such a reflex to encapsulate it. And the brain has it in relation to thinking about it that it's wrong and it should be hidden away or

    Yes, it does. Exactly.

    Mm.

    Or I have to get rid of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    So it's not a part of me at least not exactly. It needs to be packed deep weight again. It's never been there. Or it's your fault. So you have to take for it too, right?

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Quickly send it off. Basically, it's just been a way of trying to deal with this tension that's just been passed on because we've had no idea what to do with it.

    Yeah, yeah,

    right? So and so if we start to integrate it, you know

    Yes. So it's maybe the first time that we see it as a tool, or I don't know. They've been tools before, or something like that.

    Yes, you could say that psychoanalysis and Freud and Jung and the like realised that, well, there's something about this stuff that we just stuff down, right? I mean, people get sick and it goes, it's a mess, right? So you kind of realised that putting emotions into words and feeling them, shaking and stuff like that, Peter Levinde, so it does something, so we've known that for some time, it's as if there's an extra superstructure to it, so I think it's my own little home-made hypothesis, I think we'll have a future meeting about it, I don't know how long it'll take a couple of hundred years or something where what you and I are doing, so there's no psychologist and stuff like that any more, so it's not necessary because people can actually, it's actually self-regulating. You can actually go in and feel that you know that we grow from it, you do it yourself, we grow from this

    notch So, it's like a side effect of such a hard violent evolution, where the primary focus is on survival. So these have been survival mechanisms that we in our part of the world now have the opportunity to begin to dismantle or at least investigate curiously, because we are not faithful to life all the time.

    So it will be interesting to see what the self-assertive, self-regulating human being actually means, right? I mean, it's very beautiful.

    Yes, it is. Yes, it is. I also noted what you said earlier about unconditional love. Mm.

    As a place we can go as a species.

    Mm-hm.

    Uh, and that where we are right now is conditional love, which is predominantly between humans.

    Try to say a little more about that.

    Well, it's conditional love. That's, that's where, well, you get my love or a lot of it, it's also, what the hell does love really mean, right? Because I think a lot of what we describe as love, that love is on a spectrum like everything else, a frequency spectrum. And I think a lot of what we call love is really just caring. Caring is fine. I mean, it's a pretty low octave of what's actually possible in the love frequency. And it's kind of like, well, you know, we're fine and everything's nice and it's good until you do something that I don't like.

    Or until you don't live up to my expectations.

    Or until you don't live up to my expectations. Or until like now I've done so much for you and you don't do what I wanted you to do. We had some kind of agreement and there can be a lot in families. Something like when you become an adult you have to be a certain way with your family because either you don't live up to the expectations or you don't live up to the expectations and you can say a lot of it is alliance concrete and much of what we have lived in families is basically about a tribal culture that had to survive together and that therefore you make alliances and then it's us against the others and then you adjust and you know, you actually give up some of your individuality and your voice, it just doesn't work anymore, so we also see that many family structures are breaking down and it can feel violent and it can feel isolating and it can feel like an And they also go against our herd mentality because we also regulate together. But it's a paradox, because it's true that we nourish ourselves by being together, but we also traumatise ourselves by being together if there's no room for us.

    It's true.

    And if you don't, if you have to pack yourself away because you're being punished, so there's very subtle, there's still very very subtle social control in the family structure.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    And I just don't think that's going to be there in the future.

    It's a bit of a modern form of lord of the manor or something, not exactly.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    It's that and it's there. And when you first see it, you can get quite scared. And that's why the best thing you can do is to actually look at where you're going to do it. So are you going to badmouth your friend because she cancelled your 40th birthday party or are you just like, well of course she's invited, if she can't make it, she'll probably do something else. So can you really set people free? Love is the same as freedom. And it may sound, it's not like if people are free, then they can just shit on you. But if people have all kinds of

    Yes. Yes, they can. But if people shit on you, then you don't want to be with that person. Then it's not that you're not loving. But then you're more likely to say: ‘Well, but the person has, if the person has lied or manipulated or says they haven't. But then why do you keep trying to seek that person out? Well, then it's not loving either. So, but it's actually the fact that if you want to love unconditionally, you also have to give the person space or freedom to be the person they are. And it can be and it can be very far from what you think the person is or what the person thinks you think the person should be for you. So it's really good to realise that you're disappointed when the kids come home and you're disappointed that you've been cooking and you're supposed to be enjoying yourselves, and they don't really care about you? So what are your expectations of this family life? You have to take care of them so that your children don't have to carry them.

    Pre. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it becomes a way of indirectly controlling other people, right?

    Yeah, exactly. And do you have an expectation of what kind of clothes they should wear or what kind of friends they should have? Try to notice how many expectations you have and ideals you have that you want your children or your bonus children to live on.

    Because you can make room, you know

    and your partner So the paradox is that the more you I would actually say the more you manage to create with the person you're with to create an atmosphere, an atmosphere that is harmonious, and it sounds like something mental but it's actually if you enter a place and are with some people who have a harmonious group field it feels very very open, like you're not you, so you can just sense that there I can't I'm not afraid to step aside I'm not We, where the ceiling is high.

    There are high ceilings. Exactly. I mean, where people take care of this. There's room to be you and want to go. And what do you want to do? And that's fine. It's as if it gives you an enormous sense of fulfilment. It's extremely safe and you feel like you want to bathe in it. Enormously nice. Versus going into a place that might have all the designer furniture and they have the finest rubber food. But you can just feel it. There's such a tension. It's a bit like if you say the wrong word, there's a tight mouth or you can feel it like phew. You have to think about when you step here. So there's a big difference between the two. And I think the best thing we can do for children ourselves

    is to clear up our own tension and kind of mirror our partner when he ends up like hey there's someone messing around here

    mm

    Either it's between us or it's you or it's me, I don't know. But let's keep going until we've cracked the code on that.

    I mean, let's fucking keep going

    because that's how you can get madly addicted to such an open field.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    I would say.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    That, um...

    but that's a very good picture, actually, also in relation to the relationship, right? The thing about, if you feel the relationship with your partner, it's like having to walk on eggshells or having to do, well, you kind of have to walk on a very narrow path.

    Yeah, that's right.

    Um, and I have a feeling that I can't move as much as I really need to, right?

    Yeah, exactly.

    Um, versus there being a switch where there's somehow

    there's room for

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    Who you are, right?

    Yes, exactly. Yeah, of course, it goes on and on. So you're interested in finding out who you are.

    Yes. Yeah, that's right. Exactly.

    So underneath everything you have, what have you taken in and what reflects the culture and all that, right?

    Mm.

    So then you see that they're kind of connected, you could say. But if you start to relate to what's happening in you and have the courage to recognise when you've behaved like an unreasonable person in three eyes, which you're going to, and that's annoying in a 40-year-old body or almost 45, right? So it's never fun to realise that you've fallen into something where you're behaving. So there's some unhealthy thing that comes up, right? But the great thing is that if you can handle it together with your partner, if there is one, if you don't feel judged.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's very much what it's about, I think.

    Yes, that's what it is. Because if you always have that kind of openness and just say, well, I could end up with you too. And that's actually very much linked to the fact that if you trust the other person to take responsibility as soon as they wake up in their subconscious. I can see that they are very much connected if there is a doubt about whether the person takes responsibility. Because there's a difference between you saying, okay, I can fucking see that. I can see that I got into some kind of argument or something annoying or the press or I projered. I can see that it was my own damn fault. I'll take care of it. But the person doesn't take care of it. That is, the person ends up with you again and again and again and again and doesn't do the work to find out why it is you end up there? Why is it that you're going to try to use me to distract or family life or whatever it might be, right? Versus the person coming and saying, I can see that, I'll take care of that, and you can see that the person is taking care of it. It's so big for Mm.

    And it's hugely frustrating to experience a lack of responsibility. I think that's actually the biggest problem. The biggest problem in relationships.

    Yes, it is. That it becomes some kind of sleeping pillow or something, right?

    Yeah, that's right. Exactly, yeah.

    Yes, that's right. Where you don't get your hands out of your pockets or think, well, there has to be room for me too or something, right? Or something like that. I don't have to change myself or something, right.

    Yes, I don't. You get to use the ‘I am as I am’ thing.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    And it's just like you're a product of everything. A lot of that stool. We all are. I can feel that I need that, or not, or something like that. Then I should be allowed to do that too, or yes, exactly. So the thing about holding on to immaturities like that, that's my personality, that's just who I am, right? Um, and of course also the first step, but if the person has already realised, okay, I can see that I get tense, and I get explosive, and I get grumpy, and I get something else, and I take care of it, and then don't take care of it. There's a great sadness in that. There's a really big, well, it's almost even worse than someone who just stubbornly holds on,

    because if you have a family member who stubbornly insists that I'm allowed to be like this, you know, I'm allowed to do whatever it is that is deeply unpleasant for other people to be around. Well, then you can minimise, it's just like that, the person doesn't care, so I don't minimise contact. But if you're with someone who you can actually see, who has the insight, I'm a behaviour, actually has the insight to see and comes back and says, I can see that's my share, but can't get their hands out of their pocket to actually make a behaviour change and stick with it, it's hugely frustrating, and it's very, it's such a lost potential, I would almost say, right?

    Because it will destroy the relationship over time. say, you kind of lose respect. Um, you lose faith in the person and then you only have the choice to take on more responsibility or leave. So I would actually say that this and this is also what I think when I do couples counselling, I can see that if one of them is here hoping to buy some time by just sitting in couples therapy, you can't see to do anything just like that, couples therapy doesn't do shit. It doesn't matter what happens. Not exactly, but it's what happens between the time you leave now and the next time you come here. M

    that's what matters. And can you stick with it? Because if you don't, then this, this relationship is golden.

    m

    so there is a call in this time we live in to take responsibility it comes with the freedom to divorce and choose others there is such a greater degree because it is a greater complexity so it calls for we can't we can't just have the freedom that other countries some countries don't have at all so we also have to take on the responsibility that we live in there are still a lot of things that can be developed but we live in a very free country there is no risk of there suddenly being earthquakes welfare system so we we are lucky in many ways m

    it calls for us to get our heads out of our arses and raise our consciousness rather than just falling further into some reality show. Well, people can decide for themselves what they see, that's none of my business, but there are many ways to avoid taking responsibility, I would just say.

    Mm.

    Mm.

    So, uh, so there was such a small little invitation.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. Netflix is one of

    I love Netflix, but yeah, what's it called? Yeah, but I was thinking about, you mentioned the overcompensating or one of them is going to go in and overcompensate, right? M

    how do you realise you're doing that? I mean what is what what is that?

    Well, if you overcompensate, you'll be very much on top of the other. So you'll be, let's say you come home, and it's Friday, and the kids are home, and it's going to be so cosy, and there's starinst, and there's nice music, and there's red wine, and then you can feel your partner come home and super edgy, kind of twisted, and you can feel, phew, you can explode anytime. So you intervene, you're trying to make up and you're trying to get the kids somewhere and you're trying to cuddle him a little bit or cuddle her a little bit or like, you know, jam, I'll do the cooking and stuff. You're constantly trying to deflect and so on and compensate. So if there's a row with the kids, you go in the back, you go in afterwards. He thought it's probably not that bad, and it probably wasn't, you know, you get in the way or try to compensate, and if you keep doing that, you'll end up living in a home you don't want to be in, because you'll constantly feel like some kind of war zone where you feel it's your responsibility to make sure everyone has a good time. And it's completely unbearable. So here, when you have to unwind that pattern, you're actually going to have to watch some things explode, both between your partner and maybe your own child or your partner and your bonus child. And you'll actually have to keep your head down when you can see something exploding and your partner comes and asks for help or something like that. Can't you do something just a little bit of what you've started yourself? You simply have to change it. So we have an island expression at home that can sound a bit harsh, but there's a lot of wisdom in it. It's just the internal thing between him and me, right? It's one of those, you know, own arl, own responsibility. And what it basically boils down to is that if there's an incipient conflict, the bonus parents withdraw. Well, we don't go there, there may well have been boundaries, but that was a long way in. So we don't actually interfere, because it's something about it could be that the dynamics can be so vulnerable. So we leave the conflicts with the other bonus child to the other person. Then we can say, ov, I think there's something with the adv, why don't you do something? And then of course the parents listen and say, okay, I'll take care of that, right? And then we trust the other parent to take care of it. Or no, I disagree with you. We'll talk about it later and we'll find a solution, right? So there's something about you having the main responsibility, and it's also to avoid the dynamic that if a new bonus parent comes in and takes over responsibility in one way or another, where the other parent lets go, because you have even more attachment responsibility when you're divorced, because you only have the children half-time, so you have to be the one who takes the leading role in order to avoid, which I can hear many, when I have someone in therapy, of those who have grown up in divorce families, are now adults, where they could feel like I was so forced to be with this bonus parent. We had to go on holiday together all the time, because now we're a family. I don't think we were a family at all, right? And so I don't think my, I don't think I've ever done anything. with my, you know, biological parents, because it was just, now we were just kind of bought into this. Um, and it's kind of like, it doesn't work. You can't, you can't expect, as bonus parents, you can make yourself available. It's the child who chooses you. You can't force your way in, you simply can't. You can make yourself available, and then you can be chosen, and then the child can choose to open their heart to you. And it's beautiful if he or she does that, but you can't demand it. You have no right to demand it. Um, so there's that aspect to it. And then, of course, there's also the fact that there's something really cool in the fact that if something explodes, if there's something that explodes, and with nap time and stuff like that at a time when we had staggered contact, because we didn't want the children to have to push together. So they only had the weekend, so they had, you know, three, four days on either side alone with us. And if things got so loud at bedtime and stuff, and my son wasn't there, I could just say: ‘Well, you can have fun with that.’ Then I could go upstairs and go to bed, right? So you had to feel it out for yourself, right? So that's the one we stick to a lot, we stick to it a lot. And then over time, of course, we can see that the other child starts to reach out more. So if my son has dropped out of school, he quickly calls S to me. So there's nothing there. So you can see that he's starting to reach out, but it's also taken time. He's really been allowed to do it. And vice versa with my bonus, right?

    So they shouldn't feel pressurised.

    But it's also a bit directed, I think, at bonus meetings, especially not because there can be this pitfall where, because you're a woman, you

    quickly get to go in and take

    Yes.

    and take on some responsibilities.

    Yes. Don't, don't, don't, don't.

    Oh, by virtue of the values you have or something, right? I mean, thinking about community and connection and such and caring, right?

    Yes, yes.

    Erm. And that's where it can be a really good idea to head horses.

    Yeah, yeah. A lot

    also for the relationship dynamic actually, right?

    You can come to feel too careful for him if you think he's letting his guard down. And then you understand the same dynamic that you might have had in your last relationship, where you were like, well, I had all the responsibility and took on too much responsibility and mental low and everything.

    Yeah, yeah. At the same time, the way that the incentive for doing it is that you think it's my way of contributing here or it's my way of fighting for us, or it's how I

    Mm.

    do good things for our family here, right?

    Yes, you do.

    Yes, it is. And that's it. And it might just make it worse, because there might be the fact that now comes with a gross grenalisation.

    Come on, let's go.

    Yes, there can be. There may be a residue in fathers, because they haven't had many role models in relation to the caring part. So there may well be some fathers who let go of the helm in terms of making sure they bring their swimsuits to school and take care of the packed lunch and stuff like that. Why don't you go and get it? And if you make yourself available, he may not do it consciously, but he can quickly realise that you'll take over. So there is a risk that the biological father, and of course the biological mother can too, but there are other things, other risk factors, but there's a risk that he might actually drop the kids or just like, well, she'll take them, and she's also better at the caring part.

    But I would actually say don't, because the best way, we've actually seen that in research from single fathers. The best place where they develop best is actually when there isn't a woman hovering.

    Yes, that's right. And that's also what you see, that you fall in love with some of those parts of the sphere that just completely

    goes in and carries it, right?

    Yes, yes. Well, yes.

    I mean, there's nothing more attractive than that. It is

    fucking gorgeous.

    It's crazy.

    Yeah, it is. And you can kind of see, okay, you can kind of see how they, I can clearly see it, it was it was it was a wonderful studio and and look and look at my island my my partner and see how he was coping with his son, because there were all sorts of things, because he had been divorced for almost a year when I met him. Um, but they had a house they had to liquidate, so they had lived together for a bit, so they hadn't lived apart for many months. when I met him, so then when my bonus son was seven years old at the time, of course I had a lot of reactions to the divorce, right? Um, he had also come out of a relationship where mum had taken care of a lot of things, and he had been working, so he was kind of like f***, what to do with this child, and he kicks me when I have to, he has to cuddle, and I do something like that. But he got into the task, so I had to solve it. So I have to, so the thing about actually taking those situations and facing them and getting a much, much, much, much, much better relationship with his son over time. It was a beautiful thing to see.

    Yes, it was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was. And that's what can come out of it, being allowed to be at peace with it and kind of stand in those situations

    m

    alone, without a partner coming in and interfering. Exactly

    Or have a much better idea or not.

    Yes, exactly.

    That, and it's clear that you have to stumble a bit along the way. It's something you have to develop, right? And learn to stand up for yourself. Very much

    self-compassion

    for sure. So it's hugely beneficial. So I would say my best advice is, it's the thing of course you find a way to do it. But that the biological parent has the primary and gets things landed, so over time you can get connected, right? Um, and then you can always ask for advice. So the closer the relationship is, so if there's been a situation or something like that, when you come down, it's like phew, it's okay, it went off the rails and stuff, you think or something, what did you see? So what did you see happen? Um, and then you can get that, you know what, you landed it really well and it's all good, right? Or I think this happened or something, or whatever it might be, right? But you can, you only ask for advice if you're comfortable.

    Mm.

    And you only ask for advice if you feel respected and not assessed and judged. And that's where it comes back to this thing of getting things settled, you know, when you've disagreed, especially when you've disagreed with the kids, right?

    So that's why it's really, really, really important to get things settled and because the thing with the children can be very deep. Are you crazy, it can be so that you can become such a lion mum

    So if there is or especially if you think that he has misjudged your child not he does not read you so he does not lean your child wrong you are a sweaty man I want to skin him alive.

    Yes or attributes something to your child that is inside himself and he has projected not you want to hit him hard.

    M and that's where it can be incredibly beautiful, when a little time passes and a man comes and says I can see what you meant. I had my head on my arse. I can see it was my own, you know I've been working on it. But it's not like that, it's maturity, it's the sexiest thing in the world. That's what turns you on. It's not whether he's bought a car or got more money at work. It just can't stand alone. It's just not enough. So if you can't find out what's inside you and you're always flaunting it, it becomes so conflicted or so empty, because it's only what you care about, what you know, how you look or something like that, right? So it's really, really, really boring.

    We have the outside, we have the inside too, so we have to switch that on too, right? What the hell is going on inside us? I also think there's another thing that you actually have to take very seriously and really look deep inside yourself and take ownership of and talk very openly about with your partner. And it's actually how much do you really want to be part of your bonus child's life? And what does your partner want? Because you can say: ‘Well, now we'll just have a family, we'll live together and stuff like that.’ It's not that simple. I know someone where she was like, well, I don't need to be a part of that. I mean, I'll be nice and kind and stuff, but I don't really want to come to a family dinner. I don't really want to go clothes shopping, and I don't know why they chose not to move, so it's and I only have sporadic knowledge of the children. But that is to say, they also have that it's cosy and friendly, but it never reaches the edge either. And that was because the woman simply didn't want it. She's just like, I didn't want to have children, and I don't want to have bonus children either. So I actually have deep respect for that honesty. So it's better to do that than to try to push your way in. And you know you're going to be the meanest mum, because you're actually just waiting for them to leave home, right? And the other one, you're actually also really important if you have a heart or a uterus that wishes there were children, or that there would be more children, and there aren't. And you can feel that you've just realised that there's room for so many children that you want to take them in as your own, and you want to be like a mother to them, because it's not, they have a mother, they may not need you as a mother, or you can't be their mother, because you're not. So you actually have to go to the home, the child you're a bonus mum from, bonus parent from, has a mum, and you shouldn't be a replacement. So there's something about if you put too much effort into it. If you take, you're pulling them too close. You have to be aware of that. Um. And you also have to be aware if you feel some kind of competition with their mum and you have to deal with, um, some kind of you don't think she's doing it well enough or something, right? And there can be all sorts of things in that relationship that are difficult, but it's basically the child that has to figure out, what am I going to do with my mum and with my dad and with you in the long run? You have no control over that. You don't have to. No control over that.

    That's why you can listen when the child says something, of course, but you actually have to be open. You have to deal with the emotions that come up in it, right?

    M. But you can certainly end up in a dilemma if you find yourself in a situation where your bonus child really wants you.

    Yes, that's true.

    So, that is, the child chooses you.

    Yes, exactly.

    But you don't want or you don't want the child.

    Yes, exactly.

    Not because you're not or something.

    Exactly. Exactly.

    So that

    and that's there, and that, that and that, you'll be able to take that on too. You have to take it on in a way where it's not the child's fault. So it's also about realising that if it's there, you actually need to talk to your partner about whether there might be a sadness in him or her, if there is I can see, but I can see that the child is throwing a lot of love at you that you don't actually want to get that deeply attached, right? But it's just better to say it out loud and it's also better that you go in and feel what's there, what do I have, do I have any resistance? Is there anything, is there any trauma here? I have resistance to it, or what, what is the cause? Not to say it's wrong if you don't want to, but it might be good just to, to clear your mind and find out,

    what is it about?

    What is it all about? And it can also be, and if you realise it's about pain, because if you get attached to the child and then you lose it, well, then you can create trauma. then you have the opportunity, so it may no longer be there. So you have an opportunity to find out what it's all about. And you might also have a little bit of, well, you know, I can be loving, but I don't actually want to have that huge responsibility, or I don't want you to have to go out and buy clothes or whatever the hell it might be, right? And you can also find ways to take responsibility, right? Where it's actually about communicating in such a way that the child doesn't have to bear the responsibility.

    So there are a lot of nuances in this. M

    Yes, there are. Yes, there are. And as you say, with the utmost respect, right? So the thing about somehow daring to come forward.

    Mm.

    Erm. er as who you are as who you are. And even if you feel like you're a little

    as somehow a little wrong, that you're not someone who really wants children, right?

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, you do.

    Especially if you're a woman, right?

    That's where it can feel like it's completely contrary to the cultural expectations of what a woman should do, right?

    what a woman should do, right?

    Yes, exactly. You just have to have lots of children, and you don't need to. No, you don't. But there can be a lot of that.

    So there's been a lot of the whole caring aspect that's been projected onto the woman, right?

    Mm.

    Erm, and fortunately we're breaking away from that. Not that she shouldn't be a carer, and she shouldn't love children. It's not that. But not all women have to spend a lot of life energy on children. It takes an enormous amount of energy to take care of children. It takes an insane amount of energy to support them to maturity. And it also takes an insane amount of energy to support bonus children to maturity. So it's something to consider. Whether that's what you should spend your life energy on. Because or if you take it on and actually didn't want to and then all of a sudden, let's say there's the state meeting with someone or whatever, there could be all sorts of things. Or there's illness, or there's trouble with the extended family or your own family or something, and you start to get bitter. You can't do that. So you actually have to, you actually have to take an honest and real look at it and say okay, what do I actually want to invest in this? And then, of course, you can't do it so squarely in terms of emotions and attachment and all that. But uh and and what does your partner want? And it's actually quite important that you have that conversation too, because moving in together might not be the right thing for you.

    No, it's not. Because it also becomes pretty clear what the differences are, if you dare to

    dare to have that conversation, right?

    Yes, exactly.

    Because it can be a bit difficult if you're very different in relation to these expectations, right?

    Yes, very much so.

    Mm.

    But it's more if you don't say it because you're afraid that the relationship can't handle it, believe me, it will come up. Well, because you can't run away from it. Because if you don't actually want to spend time with your bonus children, but you move in together and you don't actually disappear into your phone or just disappear all the time or disappear into other places or get grumpy and moody, then you're showing it through your behaviour anyway.

    So then

    you can't fake it.

    You can't fake it. You really can't. You can't, you can't and you can't save a relationship by not saying anything. You can only make it a huge hassle.

    Yes, you can't. Or you can destroy a relationship by not saying anything, right?

    Exactly.

    Well, that's also the way to ruin it, I think.

    Yes, a lot.

    Mm.

    And also by saying it's not right. If someone comes along and says well, I can see that you say you want to be part of this but you don't show it. You don't take responsibility for it. Yes, you are. But it's not right. And I've just had a hard time at work. You can't keep a lie like that going for very long.

    Mm.

    You can try, but then you'll actually contribute to the other person having to overcompensate for your bad mood because you don't take responsibility for what you've said.

    Mm.

    So we're back to personal responsibility.

    Yes, we're back to personal responsibility. Plus it can be a tough message for a co-parent when you're standing there after a divorce and you want to serve the best to your kids from now on, right?

    Well, yes.

    So that's when it can be a tough diet.

    Yes, it can be.

    With a girlfriend who says, I'm not really interested in that.

    Exactly.

    It's not them I've chosen. It's you I've chosen, right?

    M. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    And Oh s***.

    Mm. It's really hard. It can be really hard, but you'd rather have that honesty. So you might freak out, but you'd rather have that honesty than end up having bought a new house and maybe trying to have a new baby with this.

    So yeah. Buy the cat in the bag.

    Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Only to find out, well, that person wasn't interested at all. I've never been interested.

    No, you haven't.

    Because then you get into commenting. It will be hell.

    You'll simply be hell. Great, Mette, we're also going to talk about this with Xen.

    Mm. uh how to somehow along the way or also from the start or whatever how to land it.

    Mm.

    Erm, when there has been

    Yeah, yeah.

    uh miracle or wounds and pain and

    Yes, exactly.

    Right?

    Yes, yes, yes. And it's, um, it's kind of another complexity into the mixing because you have the same pattern in relation to you actually have to take responsibility for the things that are in the problem here. What's difficult is that you might not be able to land something with the mixing partner. When I talk about landing things when something is difficult, right? Well, it's actually the one that becomes a huge hassle, because if, let's say, you've ended up where you've boiled it all down to pure practicality. So you and your team are like, we're not going to develop if it goes off the rails, right? Then you've actually ended up there. And in that case, it's a tricky place, because you can see that you have a huge problem inside yourself, about your ex, which is that you want to pretend that they're fine, because that's what it says in all the textbooks. So that's what it wants. So you can spend Christmas together and then that's the good co-operation on the other side of the divorce, right? The problem is that some people feel that way, because you get divorced for a reason. So a lot of people think, we'll have a really good working relationship on the other side, but all the problems you had before, they move with you, so it becomes really difficult. So you actually have to be brutally honest with yourself, what can you do and what can't you do? Because you actually have to look at what can you do best for your child here? Because you might be able to keep the illusion that you and the mum or dad are okay, but then when you're together, it becomes, it becomes hell for you, and you have to walk on eggshells and you're the one who's going to explode or worried that it's going to explode becomes weird, right? So you're actually in a place where if you follow the textbook, well, sometimes you get together and play family with your ex-partner. And can you do that? And it's nice and cosy and you have a friendly relationship. It's fantastic. A lot of people don't have that. A lot of people don't actually want to see their X on the other side of a divorce. And at the same time, they're looking at their child and they're like, but they're still your parents. So you actually have to land in a place where you take responsibility for where you are now with your ex, but set your child free to figure out for himself what to do with the other respective parents, right? And it's fucking hard. It's really fucking hard. You simply have to separate things. Erm. And it may be that sometimes you have to be a little honest in a way that you find difficult with your child. You know, where you say, I can't fool you. You say, yes, it's true. But you know it's not good for mum and dad to be together, or if it's just not and you shouldn't feel that we have a conflict. You should have space to love your mum, your dad.

    Mm.

    But but but but we don't so because you will have a possibly a period where you don't see the other. I'm talking about those situations where you don't just meet, and that's fine, and you can meet at Christmas and stuff like that, right? Because it's a no brainer. I mean, it's easy.

    A lot of people don't feel that way.

    Yes, there are.

    And there are a lot of people who force themselves together with their ex-partner and have Christmas and birthdays and stuff like that, right?

    Yes, there are.

    And if you're doing it for the sake of the kids, and it's cool, and it's okay, that's fine. If you have a stomach ache leading up to it, and you have to hold on to yourself every single time, and you're flat broke for a week afterwards, then consider diving into that. What is it? Are there unsaid things? Is it possible to tell that person? And if the answer is no, then should it be cancelled? Is it something like that or where does it come from? What is your responsibility in this?

    Are there any boundaries that haven't been set, or are there some things that you contribute to where he or she doesn't feel seen and met, right? So you can believe that when you get divorced, the problems you haven't managed to solve, it's just finished. If you don't have, if you don't have children with them. Yes, that's true. But the children mean that they live just as well as when they were together, right?

    Yes, they do. Yeah, that's right.

    Erm. So you just need to know that. So you actually have to find out, that's what I do when I'm counselling someone who's about to go through a divorce and has a problematic relationship. It's actually writing down all those things. Writing down all the situations that are lying around early in the morning or late at night, you know. And it can be like, oh my god, in five years it's confirmation, what do we do then, you know, oh my god, and what about, what about handing over the days when there are holidays, you know, it can be like, oh my god, and what about fraud, not mother-in-law there, you know, what about, what about, you know, when the demand comes that, uh, my bonus child has to go to some family reunion in Jutland or whatever the hell it is, right? There will be some things both in relation to your ex and as well as out family and new family that will set off your whole alarm system and make your stomach contract and that you don't know what to do with. Write it all down and then take them from one end. Then you keep going until you've landed them. And some of them may well be, it may well be that you turn to some ex-girlfriend, ex-girlfriend or some existing new incoming family and say oh well, my child and bonus child will not be forced to go to family parties. If that's how you feel, if you think they have the freedom, and you know it's a big deal, well then you'll go through with it, and if that means some aunts and uncles get involved, so be it. So sometimes it's very nice to clear it out, right? You know, you actually have to figure out, what are you doing here? Because it's pushing in. And if it keeps turning you upside down and making noise, then you need to do something about it with your partner as well. And you actually have to keep going. I would actually recommend that I keep trying to figure out this situation when I have to meet with my ex-partner, who rides me like a mare. Again, that thing about going in and feeling, what is it? There's some rage, there's some sadness, there's something I'm afraid of, guys, there's something, there's something I haven't said. OK, OK, OK. Can you say some things to that person? Can you, you like all avenues, and then when you land, if you do the work and sometimes also get help with that. It could be me or someone else, it's not that important, but someone who is good at saving with you here, where at the end you have a feeling you land in a place where you know the right thing to do. You know it's right. You may not dare to live the right thing, but you may end up like this: ‘No, I'm not spending Christmas with my ex. Actually, I'm not. I'm going to wind down because it gives me more freedom not to do it.’ Or yeah, you know what? I can fucking do it. I can do it. I'll reach out and have a conversation with my ex. I really think we can land this. I can see you in some places. Whatever it lands inside you, if you dare to act on it, you have to go through that difficult period where you have to say some things to your children. You have to actually mark this is how it's going to be, because now I'm living my own life. I can agree to this, I can't agree to this, and then there will be some resistance either from the X or your child will be upset or whatever it may be, and then you really just hold firm without doing the child wrong. Say I can understand that. That's how it becomes sweetheart. Because you know with adult eyes that this is the best solution. Even things you don't want the child to know. Maybe when the child turns 20, but not right now.

    What is it that is at the root of it? But you can know in your bones. Based on my history with my ex, this is the right thing to do right now. And then you have to stick with it and live it, because you have to understand that no matter what choices you make, there are always consequences. There are also consequences to meeting someone and feeling terrible about it and thinking you're playing a role you don't like. That has consequences too. It might be the right thing to do. It's not going to happen. Well, for a period of time and in a situation. So I don't really get the feeling that the kids would feel anything almost not even if we think we're brilliant at hiding.

    But we're not. They can feel it. They can feel it.

    Mm.

    So then the excitement.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's actually more, do you dare to face the outcome of your choices and stand by them? Do you have the courage to do that and allow others to do the same, of course.

    Maybe you could even ask your child to do the same.

    so maybe share the dilemma with them here, right? M

    I really want to, because I know it's really important to you, and I can feel it too,

    that when dad and I are in a room together, I behave a bit crazy, or M can feel that I get a bit

    Mm.

    I feel like I'm a bit different than I usually am. What do you really think about it or not? How is it for you? You must have noticed that too.

    M. Mm.

    Mm, yes.

    The older the child gets, you can take them more and more. You can actually open up more and more to this.

    Mm.

    And then now in it, right?

    Mm-hm. Yes. Yes, you can. Because they'll also have to deal with it, so we actually have to invite them into these nuances.

    And you may also find that the child says, phew, I'd actually rather we split it up, right? It hurts too, but I'd actually prefer that.

    Mm.

    And that's so nice. M

    so because sometimes the place we will definitely hit when we go through a divorce is that we hit that place where oh my god how can I spare my child pain not and that's natural and you can't but how can you make the pain as conscious as possible not and so there are of course some places where you stretch yourself you have to do uh but that but we should actually dare to talk to our children about what is difficult it's just beneficial we just get it landed so well inside ourselves m

    and can also show children that there was a period when I didn't see my ex at all and then had to say to my son, it's not right now. Right now it's just too much of a hassle, you know, we don't usually joke around, but you saw us flip, and you shouldn't see that again. I mean, we adults just can't fucking handle it.

    You know it's not your fault.

    That's a timeout being really beneficial actually, right?

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly, yeah. So I just had to cross myself and say, we can't do it. Adults are just like, well, adults can behave stupidly sometimes, you know.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. Adults can also be children.

    Yes, exactly. I was kind of like, right now I can't I can't I can't do anything with dad, because I just get so angry with him. Erm. And he was just like no, he found that annoying too. I mean, he could see it wasn't working and just like that,

    I'm free. Thank you, thank you.

    Yes, exactly. And just like phew not and you know and then he's also seen you know that we like you know we then some time passes and we get to talk and now we can easily be living room together you know not so he too and then we can like we've reached a place where we can kind of laugh about it so we couldn't do that there but then we can also we can easily show that we are people who fail and we contain everything possible not

    But it's the time perspective again because it's also something I hear from divorcees who are so concerned that things need to be fixed now or something like that. They need to get things done very quickly

    Yes

    to somehow tick the box. So now we're such good co-parents here, aren't we, instead of being aware that it takes many years.

    Yes it does

    And to find your way in, right?

    Yes, it does.

    And maybe you don't have to celebrate Christmas together in the first one.

    No, you don't.

    round, right? You could also wait until the second round. I mean, it's like

    there's just this thing all the time

    Yeah, yeah

    it has to be so stressful Mm.

    Right?

    Yes, and I usually also say that you'll hopefully have the rest of your life with your children, right? And they're going to have many different ages, so they're also going to ask many different kinds of questions depending on their age, even when they have relationships and stuff like that, right? So there's a lot of things that they don't understand until later. It's quite fine, you know. So it can it can it can it can land in many ways. I've seen the most wild, you know, break-ups over a few years. And then I've seen the most you know what seems to be the most you know interconnected and cohesive breakups, where it completely fell apart and became so you can't you can't really know.

    You can't really know. You can't really know if when you get divorced and, well, did you succeed with your new constellation? So do you end up in another divorce or does he? Or you can't know, so you really just have to be as present and authentic and take care of what arises when it's there.

    But I'm actually also thinking that there should be an episode about this particular second divorce at some point, because I know it's really a sore point, right? So it's really if divorce number one was shameful, then divorce number two becomes

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    So times 1000.

    Exactly.

    Because it's just not an option, right?

    Yeah, it's not. It must f****** not fail it.

    No, it can't. No, it just can't. And it really just puts pressure on that relationship in a way that is uh

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    I can be tough, right?

    Yes, you can.

    Mette, thank you so much for joining us today.

    Thank you very much. Welcome. You've listened to the podcast Sharing family dilemmas. If you'd like to talk about your experiences with the Sharing Family Dilemmas podcast, or if you need help finding a better way, you're very welcome to contact me. You can find me on my website martinesdk. Thank you for listening.

Mette Miriam Sloth

Mette Miriam Sloth (former Mette Carendi) holds a master's degree in psychology, specializing in relationships and emotional regulation. She has written three books on attachment and close relationships and has practiced as a therapist since 2012.

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