Podcast E9: The Masculine Journey

Podcast E9, "The Masculine Journey," is a conversation between Sune Sloth and Mette Miriam Sloth that explores the challenges men face in a modern world where traditional gender roles are being challenged. The conversation centers on the longing for deep connection expressed by many women and how men can break free from stereotypical expectations and embrace their vulnerability to create more authentic and satisfying relationships.

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  Women's Longing and Men's Relational Struggle

  Mette Miriam Sloth begins the podcast by describing the longing she sees in many women for men to open up and be more relational. She questions why men often seem ambivalent about going deep in relationships, even though they express a desire to do so.

  Sune Sloth acknowledges this issue and explains that many men struggle to live up to stereotypical expectations of being strong, independent, and emotionally closed off. These stereotypical notions can create an inner conflict in men who long for deep connection but also fear losing their masculinity by opening up.

  Dopamine, Hierarchy, and the Battle for Truth

  Sune Sloth introduces the concept of dopamine, a neurotransmitter that plays a role in reward and motivation. He explains that men are often driven by an unconscious need to be higher in the hierarchy, as this gives a sense of security and control.

  This desire to be on top can manifest in a battle for truth, where men claim to have the right solution or the best way of doing things. Sune Sloth draws a parallel to religion, where dogmas and rigid belief systems can prevent a true and open dialogue.

  Following the Hounds: Societal Expectations and Sexual Market Value

  Sune Sloth points out that men's behavior is largely shaped by societal expectations and what he calls "what the hounds want." He uses the example of American football, where men achieve status and attract women by being strong, aggressive, and dominant.

  This competitive culture can lead to a superficial pursuit of sexual market value, where men focus on sleeping with as many women as possible instead of cultivating genuine intimacy and connection.

  Polyamory and the Masculine Urge to Conquer

  Sune Sloth expresses his skepticism about polyamory, which he believes is often driven by a masculine urge to conquer and collect experiences instead of committing to one partner.

  Sune Sloth believes that the masculine journey should move from a superficial pattern of conquest to a deeper understanding of intimacy and connectedness.

  From Survival to Living: Finding Meaning and Purpose

  Sune Sloth describes the masculine journey as a movement from survival to living. He believes that many men are trapped in a survival mode where they constantly strive to perform, prove themselves, and gain recognition.

  This performance-oriented approach can prevent men from finding true meaning and purpose in life. The masculine journey is about breaking free from this survival mode and instead focusing on creating a life that is meaningful and fulfilling.

  Feeling Your Edge and Creating Freedom

  Sune Sloth emphasizes the importance of men feeling their edge and standing by their masculine identity. He believes that true masculinity is not about suppressing emotions, but about being able to contain and express them in a healthy way.

  Feeling your edge is about creating an inner freedom where you are not bound by stereotypical expectations, but instead can act from your own authentic power and vulnerability.

• Transcript

  Translated transcript of the original Danish podcast

  Hosts: Sune Sloth & Mette Miriam Sloth

  The masculine journey is what we're going to talk about today.

  We can talk about that.

  Yeah, we can talk about that. Wonderful. Uh-huh. I have lots to say about it, but it's not from the inside out, because I'm not a man.

  That's the thing.

  So I think I'll let you do the talking.

  It's got.

  But it's more about what how the hell do you work with your male body? How how when it if it pulls you off and you're going to shat piss in all corners. As women, I can shat piss in all corners in relation to I'm going to have another child, even though I'm not in control of other aspects of my life. What the hell are men doing there if they then choose to work with a woman? And that and some men choose to have a relationship with a woman. Some men actually choose not to be in a relationship with a woman because they say, I'm not built that way. I'm simply not built to date a woman. I have to have many.

  Mm.

  What's your take on that?

  Uh, yeah. Yeah. Uh...

  The way uh it's something that I also that we've worked on together, because it's something I haven't been able to get hold of myself.

  Mm.

  Uh-huh. Before a certain point. What I see, if we go back, is that many men have tried to use discipline here.

  Mm-hmm.

  And renounce sexuality in one form or another.

  Mm.

  And it's pretty much in all religions that men have to do something with sexuality.

  Mm. Yes. Because it's just such a powerful driving force in them, right?

  Yes, it is.

  Mm.

  Uh-huh. I've done something else. I've explored it in extreme detail with many women and then came to a point where I felt, well, there's not, it doesn't open up to anything deeper that's meaningful. And then I hit a wall of emptiness.

  Mm.

  Whereas I think it's in the nature of many, many men that if there's going to be cows coming in or something every night, they'll take it.

  Mm.

  Is there a longing to be satiated.

  Yes. And I would say that you don't do that.

  Uh, no.

  Uh, what you get shortly saturated.

  And I reached a saturation point where I finally had to take Viagra and a few other things to keep my spirits up.

  And it became so empty and indifferent.

  Mm.

  That I can't I can't I couldn't really do it anymore, if I'm honest.

  Mm.

  Ummm. And that

  so the rush no longer gave you anything.

  Uh, yeah. I think I have 12 or 13 years of experience with it.

  Mm.

  Uh-huh. It was that it filled a hole of feeling unworthy, uninteresting as a man and feeling powerless and feeling like life was boring and lacking adventure and I didn't really know. So going out, being fit,

  all chiseled and being the man who brings the women home in the crowd and finds the hottest one and fucks her and makes her come. It was kind of like an extreme sport or something and see if I could outdo the other men.

  Again the hierarchy, right?

  Yeah, yeah. M

  but it was also a thirst for feminine attention, feminine energy, because I really felt so bad inside myself.

  Yes, yes, yes.

  I felt so sad. It felt like life was so meaningless. I mean, having a couple even house life and so a bit meaningless.

  I think a lot of people have that.

  Uh-huh. And then you get to a point where you're tired of driving a trailer. And, uh, but what came out of it was really an experience that the man's drive for variety, it's not a fetish. It's not like, now I'm gay, now I need a man.

  Mm.

  It's probably in all men, I think. M

  And then there's probably someone who's sexual.

  But if you look at porn consumption, where it's like, I think 89% of men say they've looked at porn in the last week when you ask them.

  Mm.

  Then it's what's called fake fitness cues. You have an experience, you participate in something erotic. You change, and then the next, and the next, and the next, and a new dog, and you're off.

  Actually hijacks your biology, right?

  What I could see, it was, it was a dopamine release.

  Yeah. Uh...

  Um, I just felt like, I thought it was too cheap and too easy to just sit and do it.

  Mm.

  Not that I didn't do it once. But I just thought it was like, it was fucking skipping the street at the lowest not.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you don't stand there in the game and can be exposed even if the dog you want to choose is in the game where it's agreed, it's like who gets away with who, right?

  Yes, that's right.

  So I was really curious about how human sexuality actually works underneath this whole buttoned-up surface, right?

  And I realized that men have a drive towards variation, towards youthfulness, towards clear skin, towards clean beautiful hair, symmetry, everything like that.

  There you have the answer to why women are so much into the beauty industry and filters and stuff like that, because they also get caught up in that.

  And when they come, they get red here, and they get red in their hands and their lips puff up.

  And I read at one point. And I think it's true that when you put makeup on, you mimic the seen that you're coming.

  Mm.

  And I don't know how many women realize what they're actually signaling when they put on makeup. They're actually signaling stupidity. They signal fertility, they signal willingness.

  Mm.

  Uh-huh. And then on the other hand, you have men who are ass-licking and staring all the time.

  Mm.

  David Biery is more the evolutionary psychologist. He had done a study of men in New York where he had examined how often they thought about kissing a woman on the street. And it was something like, they could walk three blocks, so they thought of six women they want to take on the spot on average.

  Mm.

  So it's from memory, but it's something like that.

  I know that well.

  Mm.

  So when it came up, I realized, wow, how it controls my consciousness. I might not think about it all the time when we're alone, but when we're at the beach,

  Mm-hmm.

  it's like there's just something that forces my attention all the time towards an ass and towards a woman and towards And the fantasy later can also be like that.

  And I know that too, it was really hard for you, but I also knew I had to work with it.

  Mm. Here we have the answer to why such monks they have sat on country mountain where there are no women.

  Yes. Yeah. Uh-huh. You know cold wards, and now you've had some dream, and then it's terrible, and then you've sinned, and then you should be ashamed and everything, right?

  Uh, yeah.

  Uh-huh. I'm just going to make that claim, and that's how we men are wired, because if we weren't

  we wouldn't have like if women didn't have the drive to have children, no matter how horrible things were. For example, during World War II or

  you know after something.

  Well then it would have stopped.

  So we have an evolutionary uh

  very very strong force

  where men have such a, well, there's a group of women they start for and then they make one with 20 kinks. They try with the hottest one, then try with the next one, then try with the next one, and the one who says yes, they pin her. And if she wants him and he knows he can easily end up a kind of loneliness. She also gives him a kind of status in his he has a connection at all.

  connection and then they get together. And basically, she was the one who wanted to fuck him. That's a bit crude. Perhaps a little on the nose. He can follow love and open up and stuff like that. But on a biological level, well, that was that. Anyway, we seal the deal, and then it begins. And then he starts to feel trapped.

  Mm.

  Uh-huh. And that might be expressed in the fact that he misses fucking other people, and he thinks it's boring. Coupled with if she has children, and she becomes less interested, and she doesn't think he's clean, and he doesn't take that responsibility, and a lot of men don't do that.

  Mm.

  So it falls apart at this point.

  Mm.

  And what do men do then?

  Well, at some point they can fuck around, but otherwise they ride in mountain bike groups or or are very much into their career or whatever.

  find their kicks somewhere else.

  Um.

  Or else they get so emotional and during the day and try to see if they please her enough, wouldn't it be possible that she would eventually I'm having sex with someone. But I have to say that it has the opposite effect.

  Yes, it does. Then she starts killing herself.

  She gets annoyed that you have no masculinity, you have no values, and you can't stand up for yourself because you're afraid of conflict.

  M. Mm.

  And that and that goes equally wrong.

  Mm.

  And I've tried I've tried both variants, so I know it.

  Mm, yes. That's the one where none of them work.

  They don't work, you know. So I can't recommend that one.

  I don't.

  And then you're left with this. What the hell do I do then? Not that Østerbo guy with the one with the man-band that's wearing those earth-colored clothes. And it's clear to see that she really has a lot of control over how the child's hearing should be, and they should have organic up from the four seasons and all that, where he's, uh, my experience of it is that there's a suppressed aggression, but he goes along.

  Mm.

  But there's a little bit of, I really want to be somewhere else. I feel more like going out with my friends, but okay, this is it.

  Mm.

  But I can understand why they caught you.

  Mm-hmm.

  Because we go where the dogs are.

  Mm.

  So a lot of what we do is shaped by, I think it was David Bust who said, well, no, it was Jeffrey Miller in an interview who said, well the men uh act according to what the dogs want. So if they like American football, and you become a football jog and leader of the team, and you get her there, and the women stand there and do something like that, what do you call it?

  and standing there, and the hottest one is the one at the top, and you get to kiss her if you become football leader. But then it has the effect of making a mess and then the men go and do it. So women have enormous power over men.

  we have enormous power over men. That's actually what you're saying

  with what you let in.

  Do women, maybe I'm talking directly to women, have

  enormous power in what will you put up with? What do you let in?

  Mm.

  And every time your longing and hope that maybe he's good enough, and he can blah blah blah blah, you give him room to mess around. You don't have to be ballbusters or some no,

  but you also have to be able to say, well, you have an initiative on who you let in and what demands you make on the maturity of a man.

  Mm.

  And if you lower the bar, then that's what you get.

  He matures on a scaling degree actually only by a consequence, right?

  Roughly speaking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If he doesn't feel that there's a reward in it, or that it hurts, and he can't feel his heart.

  Mm.

  That he doesn't feel There's a third way, which is, well, it hurts her. I can't stand that. I have to find out what's happening.

  Mm.

  But at the same time, she can also take responsibility and say, it wasn't really something you did, but it's something inside me. She has to be able to do that too. Yes, she has to be able to do that. Yes, she has to be able to do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely, definitely.

  So if she's always prioritizing, saying it's your fault, and he wears man bands, he wears man bands, linen fashion, leather bracelets and these chains with these lovely wooden beads and like, well, we're going to talk giraffe talk and bullshit, and then we go to therapy. He's going to go after something other than seeing that she's in pain and he's going to take care of her. He loves her.

  Mm.

  But he doesn't necessarily go to bed with her if he feels he's in the right place so feels he's done his homework

  and she walks on him then he should be able to tell if her wisdom is right or if she's just an immature little girl who wants her way.

  Yes

  That's a tough one.

  So right there we have a relationship that has a unique magical uh transformative potential in that we can uh mature together, but we can also get stuck in our own immaturity and continue to produce, right?

  And that's why there is such ecstatic potential in the relationship

  on all sorts of tangible parameters, but there is also an extremely traumatizing potential,

  because we can, that's when we can really hurt each other the most.

  Right. So that brings us back to your question. How do you work with the fact that you almost experience your consciousness being squeezed,

  you know, being pulled all the time?

  Constantly in all sorts of directions? Yeah, yeah, yeah,

  you don't want to use discipline, because you've realized it's failing, because it's just forcing it away all the time.

  It's just forcing it away all the time. It's not working.

  You're not getting what's happening right there.

  Mm.

  Uh-huh.

  So it was a dead end.

  So the fact that I was also insanely addicted to women, attractive women's attention and flirting with them earlier.

  M

  That was the first place that started to drop.

  Mm.

  And it was really more of a realization that feminine energy, feminine attention. Now I had a source, which later developed into an inner source where we can exchange.

  But otherwise, I would definitely recommend reading David Dater. Uh,

  Dialova is perhaps the first recommendation. I haven't read them all. You have, but it's my favorite as a man.

  Yeah, it's my favorite.

  In understanding how women work.

  Uh-huh.

  Uh-huh. So maybe for the longest time it was basically after the fluidity, after the being, after feelings filled both by the world, but really also a feeling of feeling loved.

  Mm.

  That was in my urge to get women's attention. And over time as we worked with it, I started to get more of a, well, I don't need her there. I mean, she's immature, she wants something with it, or she's immature, or she doesn't tell me anything. Even though she has all the right goals, it was as if I could start to sense, okay, the charisma here, I could sense the charisma, like everything was right by the book, so it was uninteresting. M

  Then it became more and more like, uh

  there was more and more discretion in what was needed under

  Mm.

  on an energetic radiation level.

  M

  it didn't change the fact that I had the physical urge sometimes that came up.

  Mm.

  So it's a deeper octave of that.

  M

  umm and there we have been working uh working with energy and simply got hold of some When we got hold of the existential down the sperm cells

  Mm.

  it was a feeling of being extremely cut off

  Mm.

  from the universe. Um, and there is such a powerful driving force that seeks connection, seeks to get out and meet something, seeks to uh, so there is a violent isolation in the man, I think.

  At least that's how I experience it. And I have a feeling of being cut off, which goes all the way down to the balls, all the way down to the seat cells.

  M

  Uh, all of which are millions of people struggling to get going towards something.

  Mm.

  And that the egg, so to speak, is calling, and they sense that there is something they can reach,

  and they seek union.

  Mm.

  But they also get absorbed into it, but at the same time they get integrated. That's fantastic.

  Mm. And working with that has gotten me further towards feeling less and less pulled towards these things.

  It can still happen, but it happens so little now that I don't feel bothered by it, right? I mean it doesn't bother me.

  And if you see when we're together, that's how I feel,

  it's not that you'll get jealous or that you don't understand, but I want to keep my attention on you.

  Mm.

  So the desire or longing in my heart to be able to keep my attention on you, no matter what kind of

  wanders by

  v and is a driving force in not getting distracted when we go to the gym or something like that.

  M

  but I still see, and then what I see when I see a beautiful woman, it's actually the potential for the feminine in and in the beauty of the feminine.

  M

  and I think as a man, and I don't know if others do, but I experience, I can see beauty, nature and stuff like that, but the most beautiful thing I know of is actually the feminine. It's the woman.

  Mm. And the most fascinating thing is how unbelievably many different shapes she comes in.

  Mm.

  And she doesn't really know. She thinks she's going to go into it as a sexual thing. What can I do if she wants my attention? Well, there is a way he wonders if I can attract someone like that. It might be interesting for her to know what her market value is. I'd like to know. Is that something she could get attention for, that might lead to. So there's something underneath it that's not really about me at all. It's about

  what status she perceives me with, you know, if she thinks I'm pretty or if you know something. Um. And I don't want to give her that attention because I don't want to enter into an exchange with her about

  m

  I don't want to communicate with her in that way. I don't want to tell her anything about it m

  because I'm not interested in it.

  Because you're not going to do anything with it.

  M

  So my friend asked me the other day. So, uh, how did it go with doing that back then? And now you don't do it anymore? It's a few years ago. It's been a few years.

  Yes, it's been a few years. Well, the sexual sexual And he was like, well, can you stop doing that? And he was like, well, I'm not because I'm gay, and I identify myself.

  We're having, it's instinctual, you know.

  Mm.

  So I mean, all men want variety.

  Mm.

  And for youth, because they don't know why. It's as if they don't understand why.

  Mm.

  It's as if they're subconsciously driven to reproduce.

  Yeah, yeah. Mm.

  And then they come and then you shut down and become like this and then it's just like, no, she's annoying too. And then you go Well, it's also sad in a way.

  Yes, it is. Because it's only the power of reproduction, which you can see animal species also do, then they meet, then they reproduce, so they have Yes. Then they reproduce and then they separate again. Well, not all animals, but many have it a bit like that. And we also have a mammal, so it's there.

  Yes, it's there. Yes, it's there. For example, we saw an otter yesterday. An Otterf,

  well, she's six months old, the baby has to lie on her stomach, and every time she leaves the baby on a leaf, an eagle or something and a bear can come alongside and grab it.

  He's not there.

  He's not there. Where the hell is daddy? Where is he? He's not there.

  And that's what they call in evolutionary psychology parental investment

  for the hand. It's rare. And as much as it's given in humans, it's pretty pronounced.

  Um.

  So if we see ourselves as a series of evolution here

  Uh-huh.

  So the man, he has this experiment that can go in all sorts of directions. Some of it fails, and some of it evolves into something fatter

  or something else.

  Mm.

  But he's basically on the normal distribution from severe autism, psychopathy, very violent to everything to being a total beta male in all possible variants. Um, men get more diseases, they're more prone to autism, they're more prone to everything and so the history of flight is a very good example of that if you look at it. If you go on YouTube and look at aviation history, you'll see a lot of men. There aren't any women doing crazy things, jumping off cliffs with wings on and having a disc that goes around on a bike that jumps, and then it collapses and then they get crushed and stuff like that. Uh, jumping out of all sorts of things and then men also have a structure that's supposed to be the dominant one. So when I was watching a documentary about flying, the problem was that if someone had invented a landing gear that didn't break, the others wouldn't copy it because they wanted their own landing gear. Ah, that's completely silly.

  So there's also this thing where you kind of want to be the one who is known for having invented the whole concept.

  Yes, that's true.

  And I can understand that, because you want to be the sperm that gets to the egg. You want to be the one that gets selected. You want to be the one that's the tallest. You want to be the one who is recognized. So if you copy something for others, you can't be that.

  But it also just creates an extremely competitive mindset and competitive society, right?

  I have a hypothesis that the dishwasher, the robot vacuum cleaner, you know, the vacuum cleaner, everything, they only come into the world the day that men are required by their wives to do something, so they go to the workshop and then they get to work because

  they don't fucking bother.

  And again if

  or they hope if I can help her here she can then give me a little more in bed or at the engineering inventor and feel offended then I would like to apologize in advance it is not meant at you it is not something about women can't you can easily

  m

  but men are just like, well, first of all they don't get rid of the wife and then they have an excuse so they can go to the workshop and then they can shut her up afterwards because the shit works, it's a child's egg, so they're the experiment.

  Mm.

  And they are expendable. So we look at the status of the man today, and that's also what's really sad. It is

  when we send men and women, or when we say, well, it's men and it's women and children who have to go out and fly you first when there's a crash. Men are expendable.

  Mm.

  As a man, you are expendable. Worst case, when you meet a woman, you're expendable if you're no longer useful. So if you uh drop in income at some point, that the chance, if you lose your job, the chance that she will divorce you is relatively high at some point. Um, if you go to war, well then you're cannon fodder.

  And we've learned to accept that. And that's one of the things where I'd say there's a lack of male combat. M.

  M. Yes. Yeah. Uh-huh. Are you out of your mind?

  I mean, to see your life as something worth sacrificing for something that can be used and thrown away,

  it's something in itself.

  And we've also had that when we've worked with it, that the feeling of being something that can really just be trashed is basically in the male body, it's there.

  Mm.

  And therefore it's also in the feminine, so we look out over the market and then we see that we have to have that hand and they have to go out and being rejected is such a special flavor that hurts like crazy and is insanely difficult and therefore there are also some men who ultimately, I don't know if women know but it hurts extremely much before and what would you like to ask more about

  The future view because now we've actually tried to dissect and point out all these things that make this between men and women. We focus on the fact that the gap between men and women in relationships is unbelievably wide. There are many wounds, there are many losses, there are many driving forces that push us towards each other at the same time as it is such push and pull, right?

  Yes, it is.

  It's as if when the sex hormones kick in, we can't help but seek each other out. But we can't actually put up with this thing we're with either. We try to make each other. I'm only comfortable if you become like me, but then I lose my desire for you, and then it becomes another problem, right? So we try to change each other, and it's incredibly messy, and that's why this relationship is so difficult, so violent and so exciting. so juicy, right?

  But if we're going to expand into the future, where can we go? What kind of goods are there? Is there a way we can approach it?

  What is now? Have we been digging in the dark?

  What what what lies up there in the ecstasy of the couple?

  What lies there in the potential?

  What lies there?

  I can't speak for what others do, because I haven't seen others do this.

  Mm.

  So it must be at my own expense in relation to where I have experienced myself.

  Mm.

  Ummm. It's about your awareness, your ability not to fight in all possible directions. And it's about whether you feel the love from your essence from your heart to focus on that on that DNA, I think you have to relate to a woman, because it becomes too complex. I would say,

  I wouldn't be able to do this journey with anyone else. I've immersed myself in polarmery and also had contact with some of the environments and things like that and read books about it.

  So I just have to tell you that

  it's going to be a Google calendar circus,

  and then you can be with it, and then it's with them and stuff like that. And I have one too, and I have a need over here that I'm not getting fulfilled. So that's why I have to, when I need to have, I see myself tied up on a cross, so this one is too soft. Then I have this one. But try to consider, if you really care about a woman and really want to see her as much as possible, do you want her to be split up at that meeting, or do you want to have to go and have commitments with others.

  Mm.

  It may well be at some point it can become fluid, but I don't think we're at the point where that's possible.

  M

  So I would recommend that you start by trying and even though you might want to k***** everybody, and I have to say, it's a lot of hard work.

  Mm.

  You have to train a lot, you have to really work hard, you have to do everything and you have to practice your game. I would say you have to work with pickup artist uh material for years,

  like I've been doing. You really have to work on yourself. You have to work on, you have to everything. And even if you do it ethically and openly about it, it's a bumpy road and you still end up working insanely hard.

  And the energy you get out of it, it's not engaged with who you are. You are an object. You're not who she's interested in. It's not your essence. She's not interested in you. She's interested in you as a fantasy that can satisfy a short path.

  So that's what you get out of it.

  Mm.

  So now I'm rewinding and saying, okay, what was the question?

  How can you

  then? This is not an opt-out. It's not like this is this or that is this or that is that. It's more of a It's just an experience,

  that that's where it ends and then you can try it out and then you can say, that's not what I experienced or I experienced polyharming was great or you know, uh,

  I could easily integrate it. Well, uh, I want to hear about it, I,

  so I have to just take for my personal journey and say, this is what I've experienced, so I kind of have to take it for what it is.

  Mm.

  And maybe that's just my path here that I'm talking about. So that

  And I very much agree with you. He would say like, try to see if you can start with one, can you figure out how to open up every time you lock with one.

  And you then come to the end of the road to say, I have all the time open. Whatever I get off, well then bring more in.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then you can figure out what to do next.

  But it's a bit like saying, well, learn five instruments at once, because women are wonderfully different.

  M. Mm.

  So it's kind of like the

  the lion hand, right? Yes, what do they have? They have to fuck 500 times before they get pregnant, those dogs, right?

  And he has maybe 7.

  So especially National Geographic and why is he always sleeping and stuff like that? What they've cut out is that he's snapping all the time.

  Yeah, but it looks so tired. You're searching for Wildsex Macho. Listen to this. Search Wildsex Macho Mails for National Geographic.

  Then you'll see what they cut out. It's, he's snapping all the time.

  He's not doing anything,

  and then he sleeps, and then they bring him steaks.

  It's not a life you want. Or maybe you do, but I would say, I think so, it's also a, it ends, I just have to say, it almost ends up being a job.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which you just get tired of. I get tired of. So that is, so it's more of a choice to say, well, do I want to work with the consciousness I have, can it be focused?

  Mm.

  Then you hit your edges that lock you inside.

  Mm.

  Then you have to work with that.

  Mm.

  And it's only here after a few years, where you've been working energetically for me again and again and again, that I begin to be able to loosen, let go

  and change shape and just be, and then a new one comes along, because as a man you have to be able to say, I'm focused, I'm doing a job. I'm

  of course

  saw that, but you lose the benefit of it.

  Mm.

  But you m you you instead of being more and more too on how things should be. Others have to be forced into it, and they have to have the power chain, and they almost have to be punished in the hierarchy if they don't do something like this. Then you become a bit like, well, there are many forms.

  Mm.

  So spirit can be shaped into all sorts of things.

  Mm.

  Uh-huh.

  What I noticed was, and I think that, and the reason I say that, we experienced it with you, but I think it, I think all women can recognize, I think men can too, and I don't think you can really talk about the taboo, it's how much you longed for a woman who could openly express that she wanted to be sought out.

  And you found that,

  you've found that. She's an enormously cuddly person.

  But you shut up, it also made it lock.

  Yes, it did.

  The whole presence thing, right?

  Yes, that's right. So a practice that is insanely uncomfortable, it's actually being a powerful, very loving woman's field,

  because my system locks it up and has locked it up all the time.

  Uh, like her loving attention to you, it makes you shut down.

  Mm.

  Uh, and now we come back to, I could walk out of your fall and sleep by myself. And then well then it was fine. M

  In the first year we were together or something, you were only here half-time.

  Mm.

  Then I sank into one of those and then it was calm. I fell back into my stubbornness again.

  Sanded down and

  sanded down and stuff like that. But I found such peace with it.

  Mm.

  And then you came in and then it was like oh it sounded so down with I can't ah, I have all sorts of ideas. You're wrong, you're good, I can't, what should I do? Ummm. And I have to tell you, I've been there, it's really interesting. It's been that every time I've worked with it and then found out, god yes, there's a choice every time, whether you want to continue with this woman.

  Mm.

  But behind that there is actually, well, there hasn't been anything that I could attribute to you doing something wrong basically or being wrong, but in my system it was kind of evaluative of you as a woman.

  Mm.

  Um. Like, jam, but it's also annoying and why does she have to be like that? So I try, you try to hook it up to something.

  Mm. So locks, they have to have something. There has to be some kind of knee out here on the outside, right? There's got to be something in the outside that's kind of causing it. Because it can't be

  it just can't be

  It can't just be a lock.

  It can't just be inside me, right?

  Just had to get a pastel. So...

  So basically, you could say the basic mechanisms of what intimate relationships can do is that you can help each other open up. Open up. Open up. Open up. Open up. But I tried it with a woman before you.

  Uh-huh.

  And uh I found that when I opened up, she eventually locked up and became very distant and disappeared.

  Yes, she did.

  And when I went to see her, she was annoyed. But you're also demanding, and you also want to, we had sex today, or what is it you want? And I was like,

  so her lock has been hooked up to you.

  I was like, yeah. So you know, now I've given you sex and I was like, it's not about that at all. I wanted to meet you. I wanted to be close to you and I wanted you. We couldn't meet each other in an understanding of what's going on right there, where I could see in hindsight. I had a lot of things that were difficult for her to bring up, which she perhaps didn't really know how to deal with.

  Mm.

  But she certainly wasn't interested in her darkness coming up.

  No, she wasn't.

  And I have to say, Data is right there, the data again, that it's the darkness that holds all the power.

  That's what it is.

  That's where all the sass lies. That's where all the juice is. That's where your sexuality unfolds.

  Mm.

  That's where the

  the power emanates from.

  She unfolds. Don't get into the details of all the variants that you would like in multiple women, it can be found. Because then her body doesn't become the desire for blonde redheads. Then it becomes, then it becomes the variations in the expressions she has in her body. Then it becomes what you enjoy.

  M. Mm.

  In the same woman.

  Mm.

  Now you're talking. It's going to be exciting, right? But in order to get there, you can't be focused on fucking. Fucking. You have to go to a place where you want her from the heart. You want her for who she is. You long to see her. You long for her to open up to you.

  Mm.

  And in that process, you long to take responsibility for your own, because that's what it takes.

  You have to constantly

  if she calls you and you, it might be right in the situation, you close, but then when you go and mess with it, you can see, God, yes, it was really something inside me. So you could come clean and say, there's something inside me, I don't really know what to do about it. Then maybe I'll work together. Maybe you can do it yourself. You might go to a third party. But you have to work with it in a way where you get light into it, get it integrated.

  Your edginess is hitting her, but in an inappropriate way.

  Mm.

  You shut down if you can work with it and see it as she won't open up until you are worthy. She's not allowing herself. And I would say she shouldn't either. If she does, she risks letting in a psychopath or someone who's racist or whatever.

  M. Exactly.

  Who takes advantage of that.

  Mm.

  And I'd like to go into the dark again and say, David Boss, he thinks that Dark Tri, and it may well be true that it actually comes as a sexual strategy that is evolutionarily inherited, because

  the facial expressions

  people with these traits, they mimic

  Mm-hmm.

  qualities in a partner.

  Now I want to make it a little bit simple to say, a woman's a man. Someone who is a psychopath. He's charming. Outwardly, he's capable of anything. He's well-dressed, all that. Uh, he's, uh, he's voluptuous. He can he can actually psychopath can read emotions. They can. They just don't care about them.

  Can yeah.

  He seems like the perfect man. Plus he has an edge. He seems a little dangerous. He has exciting things going on.

  And when he talks to her, he can also be sensitive and so

  tell her stories about his own vulnerability so that she also feels understood and so on and so forth. So what they're doing is they're the camel that memes a good partner.

  Mm.

  A good exciting one

  Mm.

  A man who has an edge, who stands up for himself and has values and who can speak up and be a bit edgy and take her hard or take her gently or do those things.

  Mm.

  So we have a chameleon behavior here that

  trigger women's longing for a man who can stand in a polarity and keep standing in such a polarity, who has integrity, who has

  m

  success and who knows who he is. And then there's the laughter there

  and can look after her and the children when she knows that she's vulnerable with them when they're young, because her focus is so much on them, right? So there's also something about, can he actually take some responsibility there in terms of looking after the family? It's in her.

  It's also in her.

  Yes, it is.

  The alternative would be a beta who is not sexually interesting, but he takes care of the kids, he has childraring. He's loyal and faithful, who doesn't have that much sex drive.

  And she might be like, well, that's fine, because uh

  the other stuff is important.

  So I'll have my children. The problem is that at some point, she feels her longing to feel connected and the desire to be seen and loved, and then it falls away anyway.

  Mm.

  It's like her lack of focus on connection and desire for love and desire to be seen by a man and be taken and be

  loved and seen and hosted put in all her juices that came out, all her power, all her wildness. And...

  you know, when she's morning ugly, and when she's beautiful, and when she's dressed beautifully, and when she's, when she's running around in nightwear, and so she needs to be seen in all the variants for its qualities,

  which is not just sexual variations, it's all variations.

  So if you've gone all the way down the track of all that childhood stuff with a hand that can't do anything and you knew it, then you have to roll back and say, there was a responsibility here, I chose something here.

  M

  if you go the opposite way and choose the one who has all that, and then you realize he's completely full of himself He wants the children just to punish you

  or just to make all kinds of war with you. Because he's just like, you shouldn't have a good life when you don't want anything with me, right? When you're not my supply,

  you don't submit to me, then you should have a shitty life, right?

  M

  So those are the two extremes that exist in

  and so it's the variants in between, right?

  Then there are all the variants in between, and they are

  the typical reason and most common reason, Boss had also investigated that women are unfaithful. It's actually that they miss connection. Of course, there are some who are more sexually active, and they exist

  and I've also met some of them who have a high sex drive.

  Yeah, yeah.

  Um, the overall picture in his research was, I'll put a link to it in

  which is also about narcissism and psychopathy in that talk.

  It's that women are actually exploring preliminarily that it's actually to actually have a love connection.

  Mm.

  Where the man is just like, well, I was traveling in a direction, so it happened. I, you know, fell on her and slip my dick into

  oops.

  It was uh it was it was he wanted variety.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  But where she actually, I think he says 70% fair for women is about her actually going in and investigating. It's like she has an exit. Is there something? Instead of breaking off the relationship, she actually goes in and investigates, is there something here?

  Mm.

  That I could that could maybe be partner material, that I could make a switch.

  Mm.

  It's a low risk strategy.

  Mm.

  So when she's there, there's like maybe 70% probability that it's not just because she's a scumbag and you can't satisfy her or that she has, and there's also some women who need a lot of different me. That exists as well. So we shouldn't deny that it exists. Women can be insanely sexual. Yes, they can be. Yes, they can be. Yeah. Uh...

  Uh-huh. But when you get into, in this one, when a woman is unfaithful, there's a high probability that she doesn't feel met.

  Mm.

  She doesn't feel loved, feel seen.

  Mm.

  And she longs for that.

  Mm.

  That's very likely, so when the woman gets angry at the man for cheating, she's projecting into him that that's what it is.

  Mm.

  And when he says, well, it was nothing, I don't think about her, then it's true. Most of the time.

  Mm.

  Often there's no reason to be hurt about it, in that sense. M.

  But that's because for her it's a sign of a relationship that's straddling the fence.

  M. Yes. It's a sign that he can't stay focused on her. He's lying.

  M. Yes. Yes, he is. That's part of it.

  Uh-huh.

  Um, I can't say whether there are variants here that we haven't covered.

  Whether there are women who, even though they are seen 100%, need a group group

  Maybe. I think

  They might exist. But, but, but...

  I think, I think you can get all flavors. I think you have to look at it. It's kind of like how we have a very, very wild sexuality, where most of it is pure instinct that pulls us around in the mania, right? Then there's all sorts of layers, then there's attachment layers, and then there's safety, and then there's social norms, and then there's a spiritual yearning. We have all the layers that are tied together in this, right?

  Mm.

  And how do you make it all come together? Well, a long way down the road, you could say you're a bit horizontal. That is, you're serial monogamous, right? Then you have one partner, and then you switch. Or you have several at the same time. Either where you cheat, get caught cheating, or you have a consensus, you have a swinger, or you have an open relationship, or you have an agreement that you can, you're on a business trip, right? You know, where you talk about, how do you make this work? Because we want to keep the relationship. That's the myth that people don't talk about, it's really good data. So it's extremely difficult to maintain sexual attraction in a relationship.

  Mm.

  It takes a lot for it not to fade away and become boring. So some people also choose to go out and talk about going out and having a bit of fun to make sure that we can actually stay together. So there are many, many, many forms. Mm.

  And I think that's really important to say, because some people can become like that god it's always infidelity. It's not. It's about whether it's No, whether you talk about it. So there's the horizontal, then there's the vertical. Where you use the relationship as a development path, that is, irritating the darkness, maybe things come up.

  Exactly. And that means it's really just saying, well, instead of the attention seeping out into more people, because it takes a lot, and you can also, it's difficult, if you're always a little bored, well then you can find someone new. Why are you bored? What is it, what's underneath? So if you choose to go down every time you feel an edge or a wall or a closure, it's because two people commit to taking that path together, and then being with others just becomes disruptive to that path, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's just the other way, you kind of have to figure out who you are and what you're about, and then you actually have to talk openly about it with your partner or partners.

  Because what we often see when people come into couples therapy, often very late, where they've been stagnant for far too long, is that they haven't clarified with each other what our intentions are with this relationship.

  Mm.

  And often their intentions don't match at all.

  Mm.

  And it becomes a huge hassle because I have a hypothesis that a different kind of relationship will develop in the future, that we're just at the beginning of actually starting to be able to be together in a new way as a couple. And that's not to say that it's specifically this is the way. It's not the way that you just

  see it as an example of how something can be done in a certain way.

  Yes, exactly.

  With some people who are put together in a certain way and have a certain essence and a certain pulse.

  Mm.

  That's all there is to it.

  Yes, that's all there is to it.

  But it can be done in the message.

  It can be done. Yes, it can be done.

  But I would like to say something that I'm thinking about, it's

  It sounds like it can It may sound like you have to force yourself to try. I wouldn't recommend that.

  Mm.

  You actually have to be at the point where you're ready to say, we're risking the relationship. You have to turn it around.

  M. Mm.

  And then you have to be in the place where you can distinguish between whether the resistance is actually in the heart.

  Mm.

  Or if it's somewhere else.

  Mm.

  So if there's a longing to love her, a longing to connect with her, if it hurts when she pulls away and she and it hurts her, and you can be in a place where you can, when you snap out of it, you can feel, I need to see that she feels met and seen and loved more than I need to push my own s*** through, m

  my own ideas, which may or may not be fantastic.

  Um, or you can feel, if you think it through, but your will is secondary to your heart. You have to say, well you're putting will behind the way of the heart. You have to put will. But it has to be there, because you have to have the will to stand in. in a violent discomfort that can show up when things come to the surface, either in your partner or in yourself.

  And that's where it lies.

  And that's where it lies.

  So it's just, uh, you can't just, you know, some of the things that make me sick are those couples therapists who suggest having sex every Friday at seven: It's completely hopeless.

  Mm.

  You can't turn it around and let discipline come first.

  You can't.

  And what I've experienced in a male body, I've gone more and more from having a sexual need that needs to be satisfied to the desire can come, but if I go in andand am in it and let it dissolve, then it feels more like power was condensed, and then it really has to come because I want the connection and the closeness to come, and then it can float into it suddenly being sexual, but it can also just be cuddling or talking together or doing anything else or with the children in it.

  M. Mm.

  And then there isn't a scolding in between, so you don't suddenly have this container of sexual power that keeps filling up, so you seem to have to shoot it into her.

  M

  You can do that, you know.

  Mm.

  But it's something you do that follows the desire to be close to her. The desire to feel connected. The desire to love her. And you have to have a desire to see her.

  Mm.

  You have to have a desire to see her. And in seeing her, you have to work with the fact that if it awakens something in you of judgment, then you have to work with that.

  Mm.

  If it triggers something in you, then you have to go back and say, okay, something happens in me when I see you. I can't see you purely because I'm going to judge you. I'm going to judge you here. I can't I'm going to put conditions on my love. You have to be like this, but not like that. And if she's not right for you, then that's a sign that you need to look at the relationship to see if it's the right one.

  Mm.

  But if you work through it and find out, well, it was really me who couldn't figure out, because I had so many edges, so many structures, that women have to be this way, they have to look this way, they have to have this and that formula or they have to look exactly that way.

  So, you know, it might be because your need for variety is knocking.

  Mm. so pressed into

  that you just want it to be different.

  Mm.

  And you can't you can't get out of it.

  You can't. You've tried.

  It doesn't work. You keep wanting to, it takes three days or something, then you're ready to get out and find a new one.

  Mm.

  Think about, if you're watching porn, how many times do you want to watch the same porn? Typically. I don't know, but you know, one, two, maybe, then you're on to another one. So you don't get that it's an illusion that you get satisfaction from getting variety. But at some point you get tired of her. You get annoyed with her. And her beauty

  you're not fascinated by because that beauty is physical. Uh-huh. And there you have to be ready as a man to look deeper. Mm.

  And if you look deeper in her,

  she has the right to reject you. She has to assess whether you are ready to look deeper in her.

  Mm.

  And we were talking about the whole row of men that it dark tried over in the in the previous beta and everything in between.

  Um, has the handle on the valve, if you get let in. And that's where you get into a higher octave of this fear of rejection.

  Mm.

  So you have to dare to stand in and see her, and then she doesn't want to be seen. Either work on your own, or if you can feel that you're as clean as you can, that she might reject you and not know you, and that you have to dare to stand in, but if she rejects you there, then you don't start fiddling around with, well, now I have to be a little strategic and have a way out. And what about her there? And you know, how about if I just say it in a different way and just kind of apologize a little bit, who I am, where I stand, then she might come back. All that crap you have to do where you have to take responsibility.

  Mm.

  And I've seen a lot of men do that. She gets angry. But then they listen, but they don't listen. Or you know, she thinks they're listening. Or you have to be able to stand in, if you've gotten to that place, you have to be able to stand in that she reacts. And the reaction can also be a reaction because she has something in her. Because there have been a lot of botnaks before you who have made her protect herself. And she should be allowed to do that.

  Mm.

  She should be allowed to feel in her own space whether you are worthy of her opening up. When she opens up more, more power comes in. Then you are illuminated by her love, her power and then it starts all over again.

  And then you could say, that sounds really annoying, because do you have to? We haven't wanted to stop, or it's actually been running. And then, but then comes the cool part. Every time it happens, sexuality opens up in a wonderful way.

  M. Mm.

  Uh-huh. And it doesn't just seem to be sexual. It's a new way of feeling each other in everyday life when you have kids.

  Exactly. That's it, it's all the benefits in that. It's not just sexual.

  No, no, no.

  So it opens up to a new variety of she becomes a palette of beautiful exciting things that you become fascinated by. So I would say, as a man, there's a drive, fascination to see a woman, to see the woman you've chosen to choose yours, focus your attention, if she doesn't unfold in a way that if she keeps closing herself off and you want to, well, she's probably not ready for that journey. And I've tried that too.

  Mm.

  Uh-huh. But he's not doing it wrong.

  Mm.

  But you just have to pay attention to this.

  Mm. How will a woman know if a man is ready for this? I'm thinking about the risk of him starting to mimic again.

  Yeah.

  Because if women start to show that they want to, they're just possibly a little bit further ahead relationally. So I hear a lot of women have a longing for this. The other thing is to stand with a man who is head down and looking back at you. That's something else. But I think many women would feel a longing for such a journey with a man. I would actually wait to ask where what sees what is what is what can you see it in?

  Well, I've also tasted different men in my life and been on my own journey of naivety and immaturity and longing and fantasy and freedom-seeking and men and annoying and you know, I've tasted all the varieties. Um, so the characteristic is that I've been very focused on figuring out, okay, what is my own as my whole creation has been, how can I become extremely sharp at figuring out what is mine and what is not mine? And also if I know what's mine, but I can see that he keeps avoiding and taking responsibility. So it's been a journey in terms of picking up on those cues and saying, okay, if I know that no, he doesn't want to, here I set a limit or no, how does he react? Can he handle it, or does he start to pick on me? Does he start trying to pressure me, with his structure and in his impossibility to pressure me to take something on me, to use my goodness in various other ways, so that he disclaims responsibility. And I can see that I've also been a scaling. I've been in relationships where I've taken an enormous amount of responsibility and always thought it was me who had to work on mine, and where I can see that nothing was being worked on. There was a lot of talk about work. We did there, right? And until I kind of realized that it's like okay, it's really a trap, and I see a lot of women fall into that, that they take on. I also had a difficult childhood, so I can understand that I must be difficult to be around. So it's like that, all the difficult things in the relationship are something to do with her. And phew, there's something wrong with me too, because I don't want to have sex. Then there's also something wrong with my sexuality. It could also just be that you've hit on that man so many times that it's not good to invite him in. Your body simply says, no freaking way. He should not be invited in. That's a completely different problem, right? So what it really is, is a willingness to go down and feel what's difficult. And for me there was one, and it was actually the hardest thing, it was that I had to let go of my illusion that all people look beyond themselves in love. They don't. Not everyone wants a deep love relationship. I am completely convinced of that in my naivety. It really isn't. And it was when I became aware of God that I produced this in some partner who just thought, it's a hell of a lot because I'm alone and you know, there's something about that, right? Just like, okay, we don't have to talk about these things. Actually have to say, but what do you really want out of a relationship? That's one thing. And then you have to be aware that you can meet a man who is really good at talking about things, but who doesn't act on it, and who keeps talking, talking, talking, but who doesn't act. And that's really dad. It's really a danger signal in men that they can be really good at mimicking the whole giraffe language, the psychological conversation, and now we have to work, and I can see and hear and blah blah, but in the end his behavior remains unchanged, and she can very easily give him too many chances.

  Mm.

  And then it can do two things, that she just takes too much responsibility. She closes in on herself and loses her glow and her and almost feels sucked of life. Or she starts to become a version of herself that she doesn't want to be, where she nags, goes at him and gets hysterical and frustrated, because she's like, there can be this I need to wake you up. So wake the fuck up. It's like he's not there. It's as if he's like a pillar of stone or he's so sandy. And you feel like screaming. It gets so deep down. And a lot of women talked about that, and they're ashamed of it, just saying I hear it in you here, I don't see that you've dark tried and I see you trying to take responsibility. I actually think you're with a man who you're trying to wake up but it's not sure he wants to be woken up because then he shouldn't be the recipient of it. So there can be a lot of I would actually say there is a spiritual power mixed with the evolutionary power in the man to go deeper in the relationship. I would actually say that it does.

  Mm.

  So it requires a lot of work. So for some women again, have you ditched men, found a dog and hang out with your girlfriends, or are you in an okay cozy relationship where you have islands you don't talk about? We can't talk about that, and sexually it's kind of boring, but you know, we go out a bit, or we get it covered in other ways. If you're happy with that, fine, don't mess with it,

  because it's a difficult journey the other one is too, but you have the possibility of extreme ecstasy and deep love. So you have to actually know that you're willing to take the journey and you're willing to do that. You can't talk yourself out of it, and you can't go to therapy and sit once a month and then sit and talk about something, and then and then it resolves itself in you.

  Mm.

  You have to go in every single time something hurts. Every time something is uncomfortable, you have to go in and completely attract it, turn it upside down, find out what is mine and what should I lovingly say? No, this is yours, I'm not going to take this on. And then hold on. You have to learn to differentiate. If you don't learn divisiveness, then you're f*****.

  Then you'll mess around.

  So that's what I've been focusing on for years when I work with women. And learning to scold in terms of what the hell am I feeling and why. What about you in relation to men? How does a man know if a woman can take the journey and how can a man get to, how should a man stand in relation to what is the most ethical thing to do when he can feel a woman has this longing if he doesn't want to go?

  If you have to as a man, I'm really more focused on what the man has to feel in himself to know if he's ready. Maybe you have to see it as a gift when the woman she turns down and gets angry or

  react.

  react.

  Mm.

  You have to have an urge to want to see her unfold. The desire to want that. That you have to have a curiosity about all that is in her facets and a gratitude from the heart that she is showing herself.

  Mm.

  So if you if you uh if you're not there If you see it as if you're somehow deep down entitled and you're entitled to something from her, then you hold back.

  Mm.

  Um, I haven't met any men who have taken this journey with a woman, so I can't really say, I can't really, I don't really know how it is for others. M

  umm

  who think they're doing it, but who keep messing around in, ah, but I've told her that, and then I ask, well, what have you told her? Ah, but we've talked about, have you said directly to her that you're considering whether we should spend together? No, but she knows that. Then I'll talk to her. And then I talk to her. And then she says, well, we have to live together. We have to move. And then I say to him, jam, but then he admits, but it's that kind of wavering lack of standing completely Eats with what's in him.

  Mm.

  And take the risk. You have to risk that she won't want you. If you let your loneliness, your fear of being alone, your fear of not seeing kids, your fear of not getting sex or whatever, if what happens? If you let all that go first, then you start to push the most important thing aside. And that's actually being when it's really when you can feel that you're standing in a place where you're not wired to your feelings. And your structure and your own belief that you're amazing because you're a man and have everything figured out. And I know it myself, this thing where you get caught up in the fact that you come up with clever answers to things, and then you love people, follow it, but it's up your ass. Well, that's what we do. Uh, and sometimes things go well, and then you can say, well, there you go. And when things don't go well, you say, well, that's not what I said, or that's not what I meant, or you're not listening, or something silly like that.

  That's what we do. But there's

  a lot more.

  We bullshit ourselves too. And that's actually the worst part, is that we end up post-rationalizing. We end up post-rationalizing the good situations where things worked out. And if we tend to be depressed, we do the opposite. But neither works.

  Mm.

  So uh you have to be if you have to see her as a possible oracle to be able to see you. And I remember a friend of mine was like, well, that doesn't create a kind of symbiosis, and that's really unhealthy. No, that's exactly what it is. I have nothing to do with it. We go vibrationally from saying we're trying to melt into each other and become like each other. What the data calls low stage two relationships. Stage one there you have two that are extremely polarized

  with the macho and the bimbo.

  Then you have stage two where there is equality. So the man is trying to be like the woman, and the woman is trying to get more structure and become more like that in the labor market and he's becoming more and more and now we need to talk about feelings. We need to go to therapy, and we need to share everything equally and everyone is equally good at everything and stuff like that.

  M

  stage three is to say, well, I keep my polarity, but we play with it. So if I have the most energy to do the terrace, and that's what interests me, and you don't, then I'll take it.

  Mm.

  But that's not sexism. It's not

  if if if if if

  It has nothing to do with that.

  It isn't.

  We're diving into the fundamental polarity that lies in the separation,

  where you can almost see it as like a soul that's been split into two or

  Mm. Exactly.

  And seeking unification, but the mistake is that they seek to become one.

  Mm.

  What happens then, if you allow yourself to be polarized, then a tension arises where they seek each other, and then it becomes exciting, and then there is an exchange, and then it can dance, and then something new can come up and some new darkness and some new power, and then it is a cosmic dance.

  Mm.

  And it sounds like it sounds like such a huge tall tale, but you can do that in practice.

  Well, nevertheless, it can be done. Mm,

  but I would also say as a man, if you uh be crazy painful the inner states that come up in it.

  Mm.

  And I don't know if it's necessary to have a woman who has skills like you have to go in and work with what's in me because you've had to work with my lockdowns for a very long time before I could start working with it myself. I've also been extremely clogged up, shall we say,

  you were in man.

  The woman I was in a relatively long relationship with before, she didn't have that kind of ability, so she was really powerless after compared to when I went to the pit.

  Mm.

  Then I went to a therapist, a choir therapist, he could do something like that, but you know, it couldn't happen in a room where she could see me. M

  so I kind of had to get it resolved before I meet her again, because then it's like the way, and then she can relate to the fact that I've now moved on and stuff.

  M. Mm.

  So I don't know if women have an inherent ability to work with energy, with healing and being able to see into the man. I don't know if it's a necessity. So there's something there that's unclear or unknown.

  Mm.

  It has also become so during the course of this that I have slowly begun to see that I can also do some things in that direction.

  M

  Um, so I've also gone in and worked with your field.

  Yes, you have.

  Uh, in many ways.

  Uh-huh.

  Uh-huh. And I'm afraid it's going to be an edge that most men will completely freeze up on.

  Mm.

  That there are traumas that can also be included. Um.

  So epigenetic past life, however you want to describe it, right?

  Energetic exchanges that you have to deal with. You have to work differently with them.

  M. Uh, yeah.

  Um. Whether it can be done without skills, especially for women, and without this energetic understanding, I don't really know. And it's also the question of whether you can take some steps without falling into it. So my understanding of reality has been opened up again and again and again and again in a way where I have to say, phew, and it's not something you've come and told yourself early. It's something where you've actually also been relatively skeptical and such: “Oh yeah.”

  Mm.

  But then things come up, we can remember something from two perspectives at the same time.

  Yes, you tell it, I tell it, you tell it.

  You tell it, I tell it, and we can remember the same thing.

  It comes at the same time. Um, and suddenly we have an explanation for why there's this tension between us.

  Uh, yeah. And and and and it's not so much the interesting picture really. It's actually more interesting that when we work through it, that tension is relieved.

  It's relieved, and it's permanently relieved.

  So a quality criterion for doing the right thing is that it's not the same thing that comes up again and again. So if you're in therapy all the time and you have something,

  and nothing happens, so you keep going and you have to go back, then you haven't solved it.

  Mm.

  So there's also something about, there's also something about being in the masculine being extremely focused on results in terms of not where it leads, but what gets solved. And even more, now we go back to Heiddag Tardue, the man who goes up into the mountains and takes all of civilization into his system, that he can go out into situations in reality among people and not trick them and just be calm

  and be able to make a decision and be in it

  no matter what happens. Not in a way where he tons people, but also you can be boundary setting also not where he's you know, but where he's able to stand in something that made him shut down or was hugely difficult for him before.

  Mhm. So if you see, if you're going to see results, you need to see that ability to be open with your woman when she's open with you, with your kids when they're having a hard time. Do you walk away, do you get angry, do you shut down? Can you control your anger, not as anger, but as power you put forth if they need to have a limit.

  It's still the same energy, but it's not held back and suddenly bursts out. You can control it. You can you can show it to say here no more.

  M. Mm.

  No. Mm-mm. Are you angry, Dad? No, I'm not angry. I'm a boundary setter. I'm firm.

  Mm.

  Because you're not.

  And no, I don't carry n. As soon as this situation is over, then we move on and then we open.

  So you can shape-shift into the force.

  M. Exactly.

  So those are the kind of results that are necessary for it to work. Mm.

  If you don't see that kind of change,

  uh, worry when you go to see your boss because what if and then you can work. This leads to a place where you can face your boss and Yes.

  Mm.

  Well, uh, maybe this isn't where I should be, can you tell her? Maybe if this is how we work together, then maybe it's not enough trust to stay here. I've gotten to the point where I'm anxious that I'm going to say that to her at the same time.

  Mm.

  Well, if that's how you look at it then I think maybe I should find another job and before I wanted to leave because what now and death and what and then she just comes back and we better find each other again. This is just an example of something where things

  exactly something a situation that can take up a lot of space and can make you go down roads that maybe don't which just heaps you more into i i i i i i locks, right?

  Mm. And then there's another part that teaches you that you have to be willing to clean up on some levels that aren't such high-level relationships. You have to be willing to say, if you have like a bathtub that's lying there in all sorts of places where water is running out, you need to plug all the holes.

  Mm.

  Because all of that causes your mind to constantly wander in directions with worry that it needs to be fixed. So you simply can't work with it if you're constantly being raised in every direction.

  You can't be a 10 hole.

  You can't.

  Uh, if you have relationships that are flaking, you haven't taken care of, get them taken care of, if you have financial problems, get it fixed.

  Make a plan.

  Make a plan. So you need to use your ability to structure, to have goals and objectives, implement them and then get your shit together.

  Mm.

  You can't get everything under control, because something always comes in and always something else. Well, there's the car, it needs repairing, and there's something, you know.

  But you can reduce that and you can do it purposefully and keep going and keep going and keep going,

  until you get to a place where when you lie down and close your eyes, there's nothing that's controlling Exactly.

  You have to be able to do that because if you're going to focus on her, if you focus on inside yourself,

  and it keeps interfering, then you can't.

  You can't.

  And that's why, I think, men go out and cycle and do a lot of exercise, because then they're blank right there.

  But otherwise, they're caught up in all the things they have to do and what they should do and what they don't do, and

  Um, so it's from going from constantly doing, doing, doing to I can really just be, but not like it's better just to be, because that's what all those guru to you just have to be, then you're meditative. No, no, it's a place you can. You can shift you can shift in and out of it.

  M exactly.

  So it's not like one is better than the other.

  It's the state. The state of being, where an intention can form, which then makes you start to become purposeful, and then you go. And then I would just say, you become much better at focusing on the task you're doing and understanding what other people want, their intentions.

  Mm. That's also why you can say all the work you can say, you're not much work to do for a relationship, right? But all that work trickles out into all your relationships with your children, with your colleagues, with your family, with what it's for.

  Yes, exactly.

  It can be uh uh uh what's the word for something like that a bit repulsive to people who aren't interested in you becoming someone else than when they thought you were.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  You also get to clean up your relationships. It

  that happens. And it happens that people are very surprised by who shows up out of all this.

  Mm. Exactly.

  You're not going to be You're going to be You're very hard to manipulate. You're very hard to mess with because you can feel it, you can see it,

  and you no longer have a problem just saying, no, I don't really want to do that.

  So then there's the thing that gets cleaned up.

  You get to a place where you think people need to be able to accept rejection.

  Mm.

  And say, well

  there's nothing on it, but I'm not interested in that.

  Mm.

  And then it's really the downfalls, so instead of constantly meeting and trying and then you can actually be more and more brutally honest. But in a way that is not dormant,

  that isn't and it's not personal either.

  No, it's just that it's not where I am. It's not where I'm going. Or you know umm and most people trigger in a workplace they don't trigger very much on that, but personal relationships where they've been used to

  m

  that you do some kind of push pull and please, and then we have to meet up with someone where you don't really feel like you really want to, and you know after an hour you really want to leave, but you stay because you know there's a friendship or something, then it becomes like, well those relationships are difficult, because it starts to break down. It starts to break up and become difficult.

  M

  because the way you were together before, it was maybe sitting and sharing something painful, something that was difficult, or if it's a man, you find solutions to a problem, or you sit and talk about something you're interested in, that you accomplish something together. Um, and if it's a woman, then that's how we are together and flow, and you know, it's nice, and what's next, and stuff like that. And you can just feel that it doesn't nourish you.

  Mm.

  It doesn't nourish you this way of being together. The difficult ones.

  Mm.

  That's where it's going to hurt because you get to a point where you have to think, what am I going to do with this?

  Mm.

  Well, what

  I can feel that I'm not being completely honest about wanting to do this like this.

  Mm.

  You can get into that here. At least we have that, I think you do too, and also with the family.

  M. M. Yes.

  And they can get so hurt that dramatic things happen.

  M. Yes.

  Uh-huh.

  Exactly.

  But they can get really hurt that you're changing your fashion in terms of the way you interact with other people.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's like you no longer have a lot of these solemnity goals and these culturally conditioned ways of being together kind of fall away, because you're like it's not you know, it's actually cooler to be and show who you are say you know authentically on and off Yes.

  Rather than going into a courtesy, because those courtesies feed on each other. And then we're going to force each other to be with something you don't think is very cool, because it's a cultural norm that just gets passed on.

  But the dismantling of it can be taken very personally.

  Yeah, it can.

  Um. So it can cause trouble.

  Yes, it can.

  Yes, it can. Maybe we should wrap it up, but the last question was about how a man can see for himself that he is where he wants to be?

  M. Mm.

  I would also recommend paying close attention to whether she takes on the call of maturity. What is maturity? It's a concept that's a bit data-like too. I don't know if you use it, but it's certainly what we've talked about.

  Yes, I use it in my book, so it's a

  Well, okay. Yes, that, uh, the call of the Moon is that she's willing to look at whether there's something inside her that she needs to work on.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  And again, she can talk about it, that she does and wants to, and then she doesn't do it.

  Mm.

  And then she kept talking about how she needs to have that looked at too, and she's booked an appointment with her therapist, and she also wants to go to body therapy. I had the same friend I'm talking about here, so she did mind yoga with some breathing exercises, but it was like she was resetting.

  so it's like she was resetting,

  and then it's like it was gone until it came back. So it's like she was able to somehow clean it out, but because you can't just clean things out without taking the transformation. If you take something out of the system, then there's a transformation that you have to be aware of, and then you have to take the responsibility that you're in a new place, and that can ripple through your whole life of how you have a behavior. So you can't just pull something out without it having a consequence, without your perspective changing. If you do that,

  you fall back.

  Then come back because the structures that hold it in place in the system, they're unchanged.

  Mm.

  So it's something to keep an eye on, basically the same advice about whether she's talking about whether you can feel that there's a change that's permanent something's changing there may well be the same theme you get into in different ways you may get deeper into it may be but if it's completely the same thing that comes up again and again and makes you cold or angry at you and you can simply you have worked your s*** through and you simply can't understand that it has anything you can't see it has anything to do with you and she insists that we should not talk about it. So you've created and you accept that there are dark spots in the relationship where you shouldn't deal with each other, you shouldn't meet. There will be taboo areas, and over time it will spread.

  Mm.

  So your connection will become less and less, and thus the potential is closed.

  Mm.

  What we're talking about here is actually almost doing the opposite. We're not seeking the darkness. No, no, no, no, no.

  We allow it to arise. We deal with it when it's there,

  when the longing to connect, the longing for love, but also the longing for sex for us close to each other, then it comes up by itself.

  Mm.

  So you can't just say, show me, you can do that. Then you actually get to show your darkness sometimes. But often it comes in it.

  You can't avoid it. You will bump into it in your interaction.

  So it's neither consciously seeking it out, but not rejecting it either. And then when it comes, it is, what do you do?

  Exactly.

  And who stands with what? And is it something that actually, for example, as for us was something in between us. It's the subtle one that had a past that didn't know existed.

  It's the subtle.

  Is it something with my past relationships? Is it something about childhood, blah blah blah? Is it epigenetic? Is it uh...

  Is it something with human biology and reproductive? Is it the nervous system? There are many possibilities.

  It's there

  of what it could be that comes up.

  Mm.

  Um. So it's also to say that there has to be an openness that there are many possibilities in it.

  Yes, exactly. And that's also why you have to which to have one of the hardest things for me. Me, because like me, you have to learn to be in the dark. Conflict energy is not very cool for me, where you have more buried yourself in the dark and then had to come up to the light, right?

  So we come from opposite poles.

  So there's been such a long road, now we've chewed through this theme, can't we make sure it never comes up again? And it's not like that. Because you know. If there is a relapse, it's not solved, but it can be, because we have such a long evolution around sexuality and such things in how we are attracted to each other and probably repelled by each other and such. There are a huge number of variants in relation to all the themes that emerge in the relationship, so you will get many variants, but they taste a little differently of the same theme, right?

  And I think that's been one of the hardest things for me.

  So it's also something about being able to distinguish between, is it part of a theme or is it exactly the same?

  Yes, exactly. Because sometimes I've felt like I've been knocked back to the stone age and have been on the verge of giving up, right? Not lack of love for you, but more like giving up on the fact that the time is there where we can actually meet. There are too many locks that we can't unlock.

  Mm. M

  and I know from experience that you do too. But if there's a lock we can't unlock, then we'll withdraw.

  M

  it's simply, that's why so many couples have banter unless they land, land their body where they want to reach out, that they are completely comfortable in their own body and with the other and want to spontaneously touch, maybe have sex or at least be intimate together. Ø If it doesn't land after a banter, then a small cold barrier will come in. Such a cold, there is such a small little cold wall, right? And every time that happens, they get further and further away from each other. And that's what I experience when people come to me, they stand like this and say, we want to try to fix this. Do you think three times three pairings is enough?

  But it's not this in my pairing station that's going to fix this. It's basically about me shedding light on this together when you're here. But then it's what you do in all those days in between the pairings of how you dare to approach each other again. If you don't dare, then there's nothing I can do.

  Yes, there's nothing I can do. And it's also a relationship that is born in the old world. So it's born before you start being conscious of these things. Yes, that's right.

  So that's why there are often people, especially women, and you could, at least that's what I've understood from you, also try to say could it not be possible in the situation I'm in? It would actually be easiest because we have children together and stuff like that. And they come

  how often do they come to the conclusion that it can be done in that existence? A relationship.

  I've only heard it in theory. I haven't met anyone who has turned it around. I've seen it give examples of someone where they've broken up and then 10, 10, 15 years later they've met again, where they've been on their journey and are in a completely new place, and then they've found each other again.

  That's not to say it can't happen in theory. I just haven't seen it. I haven't seen it.

  Um. Yes, we met under completely different conditions than when we met, which was that we were both interested in polarity, and how could we work with that? Data and some of John Winland and you know, things like that.

  And I was at the place where I thought I'd like to do that with a woman.

  Mm.

  I want a woman where I can open up and where I can develop my maturity and where I can develop my heart

  Mm-hmm.

  in all the pain that's in it. And I knew somewhere it required something of a woman because I only realized later how much darkness I had with me and how much weight I had with me

  that it has demanded an enormous amount of you to stand in. And I would like to

  I'm grateful that you have kept well. But there is also a point in this, and that is

  when you've doubted, I've stuck to telling you, I've had to come to terms with the fact that it may be that you can't do it anymore. And then, at the same time, I want you. I want to keep going, because I want to be with you.

  Mm.

  Not for the journey, not for my development. I want you.

  M. Mm.

  And so that there is no doubt in her mind, in the woman's mind that you stand firm that you want to.

  Mm.

  So when she flutters and you know you want to, and you can stand in and dare to stand in. Yes, she may reject you, but you still keep your heart open. That's what it's all about.

  Mm.

  But there is also a message for women in the sense that yes, it can be done.

  Mm.

  Yeah, definitely.

  Because you didn't know if it could.

  No, I didn't know that. No, I could feel that I have a very very strong intuition, so I knew my whole system deep knowing, it's possible. Yes, it's possible.

  But that it's a soul impulse. It's kind of like, well, in three lifetimes, in 100 years, up to 200 years, humanity will probably succeed, but that's kind of where we are right now in terms of how much consciousness there is collectively for us to stand and release. I was kind of like, well, it will have to be put to the test.

  Mm. Yes, that's right. So there's a message here that it can be done, and it's a hard journey, but it's also wonderful.

  Mm.

  And it's getting more and more wonderful.

  And yes, there are certainly other men out there who are ready for it. We just haven't met them.

  We've seen someone on some talks with some podcasts where we think, maybe he's so and so. That

  that might be the case,

  but we haven't bumped into them ourselves.

  We haven't. And it's not to throw everyone into one category. It's simply that there's something quite special when a man expresses a longing to connect deeply.

  You see that very, very rarely.

  And that's, that's, that's where I have such, uh, it's exciting.

  I've poked my friends and I've actually found the longing in them, but what I see is that it's not strong enough for them to go for it.

  No, they won't.

  And take dare. Light, right?

  So they have a woman. And it's like, well, but there's a lot of other things too. And I'm simply seen friends on tears in the eyes. Never seen that tear in the eye when I mention this. So it exists, but it's so buried, and that impulse is not strong enough to pull through.

  Mm.

  So they end up staying with the person they're with, where they don't feel met and where they don't feel loved. I know someone who has taken on a masculine pole and finds that she actually benefits from it, but she doesn't take on any developmental journey at all. He goes on and on and on and he's just like, I know she'll never get to it, and that wasn't the premise of us meeting, so I can't demand that she does, and she's absolutely right about that. So if she's not interested in it from the outset, and you try to push her and stick her with data and talk polarity, it

  it's not going to work. You can't do that.

  Not because you have to have read him exactly. No, no, no, no, no, no.

  But you have to be aligned in some way with the fact that you want that too, in addition to wanting love.

  We can't impose our own longing on the other person. We can only resonate, and then we have to vibrate together.

  We can't pull it out to begin with,

  you almost have to start with the one where you say, God,

  what do you really want?

  I long for this, that we can go deeper, that we can allow things to come up, we can hold each other, we can love each other, and we have a hell of a time allowing it to transform and figure out how to come out the other side.

  Are you interested in that?

  You know, it's actually about you being brave and scaring the person on the date away.

  Yeah, that's what it's all about. By being so honest, right? all sorts of other people or things that are hanging around that you can't ignore.

  Uh, if that doesn't overshadow what it says, well then maybe it's not for you and leave it at that.

  But this is really meant for those who might be there as an information or a

  m

  a hope, a longing.

  Mhm.

  So I think we should wrap up here for this time.

  M. Mhm.

  And I hope that those who are listening, um, will write in the comments section or otherwise write to us questions that you find interesting, because then we can talk about it at a later time. What interests you What kind of questions do you get? What curiosity do you get that we can dive into and talk about?

  Finally. That would be great.

  Yeah, that would be great. So, we'll say hello and thank you for that time.

  Thank you. Uh... And thank you for that.